• The Reserve Pool Podcast - Season 2, Ep. 50: Behold! WKO and Teen Titan Report!



    Join Isaac, Stuart and the Teen Titans this week as we discuss all things WizKids Open! We also go into detail discussing the history of the WKO's over the past two years, dig into some Rules Discussions, and explain the Beholder-Centric team that we both ran at our local WKO's (and the hoopla that it created due to using Imprisoned).

    Want to join the discussion!? Mailbag@thereservepool.com, @TheReservePool on Twitter, our Facebook Page and of course, our blogs and forums at www.thereservepool.com

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    Comments 19 Comments
    1. GNGJ's Avatar
      GNGJ -
      Alt Art Front Line foil was exclusive right?
    1. TheConductr's Avatar
      TheConductr -
      Quote Originally Posted by GNGJ View Post
      Alt Art Front Line foil was exclusive right?
      That is correct. Not sure if we will see them again or not.... WK's hasn't disclosed if prize support with change between WKO's.
    1. hwetzel's Avatar
      hwetzel -
      @IsaacBV
      Attachment 6442

      @TheConductr That music is from the dating game.
    1. TrueMisterSix's Avatar
      TrueMisterSix -
      I think the discussion on this ep is one of the best yet. I was quite surprised by the tone of it because, largely, you guys avoid commentating on some of the more controversial topics surrounding Dice Masters (unlike, say, Facebook! LOL) and here you delivered some solid, constructive feedback that I found refreshing. A "truth session" as you say.

      On the topic of reducing numbers: I think you make reasonable observations. It's not quite indicative of the UK experience (our competitive numbers are growing this year) but that doesn't mean your observations are inaccurate. One thing we noticed over here was that the store selection for WKOs was based on WIN data for both Dice .Masters AND Heroclix, and this subsequently meant that store's with large, long standing 'Clix communities won out over stores with only Dice Masters communities when it came to numbers. That meant that those less inclined to, or without means to, travel haven't done so for WKOs. Something to think about maybe?
    1. TheConductr's Avatar
      TheConductr -
      Quote Originally Posted by TrueMisterSix View Post
      I think the discussion on this ep is one of the best yet. I was quite surprised by the tone of it because, largely, you guys avoid commentating on some of the more controversial topics surrounding Dice Masters (unlike, say, Facebook! LOL) and here you delivered some solid, constructive feedback that I found refreshing. A "truth session" as you say.

      On the topic of reducing numbers: I think you make reasonable observations. It's not quite indicative of the UK experience (our competitive numbers are growing this year) but that doesn't mean your observations are inaccurate. One thing we noticed over here was that the store selection for WKOs was based on WIN data for both Dice .Masters AND Heroclix, and this subsequently meant that store's with large, long standing 'Clix communities won out over stores with only Dice Masters communities when it came to numbers. That meant that those less inclined to, or without means to, travel haven't done so for WKOs. Something to think about maybe?
      Thanks for or the feedback. We wanted to make sure that we weren't just complaining, but also trying to offer feedback and suggestions. Heroclix has, and for the foreseeable future, will dominate WKO selection. Based on that, I think we will always see somewhat depressed numbers of participation, as you mentioned. I'm not sure if there's a reason that the store must host both, but if the Lee was an opportunity for stores to chose one or the other, that may be a positive in the long run. I also know that cost is a big issue in terms of what the shops have to purchase with the kits.
    1. hwetzel's Avatar
      hwetzel -
      Just a thought here. This is the first WKO since Nats/Worlds and the massive amount of hate due to the first turn advantage. After that a large number of players quit playing the game or decided to stop playing competitively. That and the announcement of additional WKOs could be the reason for the drop. I think it might be a little early to start pressing the panic button.
    1. Dave's Avatar
      Dave -
      Quote Originally Posted by hwetzel View Post
      Just a thought here. This is the first WKO since Nats/Worlds and the massive amount of hate due to the first turn advantage. After that a large number of players quit playing the game or decided to stop playing competitively. That and the announcement of additional WKOs could be the reason for the drop. I think it might be a little early to start pressing the panic button.

      If you look at WIN, there have been 13k individuals registered for DM events in the past year. This is great, as that number is barely below lifetime - 99% of people who played in a WIN registered event did so in the past year.

      However, just 3K players registered for events in Q3, which had RDWs and the GAF release. I get a drop for reasons you are stating, but 75%?

      Also note the dip in sales at the distributor level this spring. DM was overtaken by Force of Will and Vanguard.
    1. JustK's Avatar
      JustK -
      Well. Deadpool may be the last expansion I purchase if things don't change. I did not go to WKO because there was nothing different from Worlds and I expected to see Viscious Struggle and Bard and did on the teams that won. There were only 18 people I believe at the store near me. It was held before the change to first turn which was rather disheartening because I might have tried to compete.

      Now there is a bit of competition coming from Star Wars card game perhaps. There is some light at the end of the tunnel with the Deadpool set and the change in the first turn rules. I have hope but I do not want to play against the same team all of the time.
    1. hwetzel's Avatar
      hwetzel -
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
      If you look at WIN, there have been 13k individuals registered for DM events in the past year. This is great, as that number is barely below lifetime - 99% of people who played in a WIN registered event did so in the past year.

      However, just 3K players registered for events in Q3, which had RDWs and the GAF release. I get a drop for reasons you are stating, but 75%?

      Also note the dip in sales at the distributor level this spring. DM was overtaken by Force of Will and Vanguard.
      A couple of questions. First, is that 13K over the whole year? If so that that means the 3K in Q3 should make sense since it is approximately 25% of the year total and the 3K is for only one quarter. Additionally, you have to figure that some people will jump into a game like ours only to jump right out for the next shinny object that is promoted in the store. We have seen this locally where players start a collection and begin playing just to turn and sell it all on ebay or trade it for pieces to another game. I believe the numbers will climb back up. Will they climb to what they were before, probably not. They won't stay as low as they are. DM has a lot going for it, it just needs some organizational tweeks at the top to make things more stable. I still believe the base is good.
    1. JustK's Avatar
      JustK -
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
      If you look at WIN, there have been 13k individuals registered for DM events in the past year. This is great, as that number is barely below lifetime - 99% of people who played in a WIN registered event did so in the past year.

      However, just 3K players registered for events in Q3, which had RDWs and the GAF release. I get a drop for reasons you are stating, but 75%?

      Also note the dip in sales at the distributor level this spring. DM was overtaken by Force of Will and Vanguard.
      I could go to only one RDW because there were none of them near me. Rather disappointing.
    1. Dave's Avatar
      Dave -
      Quote Originally Posted by hwetzel View Post
      A couple of questions. First, is that 13K over the whole year? If so that that means the 3K in Q3 should make sense since it is approximately 25% of the year total and the 3K is for only one quarter. Additionally, you have to figure that some people will jump into a game like ours only to jump right out for the next shinny object that is promoted in the store. We have seen this locally where players start a collection and begin playing just to turn and sell it all on ebay or trade it for pieces to another game. I believe the numbers will climb back up. Will they climb to what they were before, probably not. They won't stay as low as they are. DM has a lot going for it, it just needs some organizational tweeks at the top to make things more stable. I still believe the base is good.
      No, unless WIN is using some funky reporting, these are unique participants. You aren't factoring that in. 13k unique registrants participated in at least one **or more** event in the past 12 months. Only 3K individuals have participated in the most recent full quarter.

      If you participated in five events, you are still just one person.

      The base is good and improving - and we see that through podcast numbers which have been consistent - but the game management is increasingly lacking.
    1. hwetzel's Avatar
      hwetzel -
      Quote Originally Posted by JustK View Post
      Well. Deadpool may be the last expansion I purchase if things don't change. I did not go to WKO because there was nothing different from Worlds and I expected to see Viscious Struggle and Bard and did on the teams that won. There were only 18 people I believe at the store near me. It was held before the change to first turn which was rather disheartening because I might have tried to compete.

      Now there is a bit of competition coming from Star Wars card game perhaps. There is some light at the end of the tunnel with the Deadpool set and the change in the first turn rules. I have hope but I do not want to play against the same team all of the time.
      JustK, having played at the Detroit WKO, I can say that I think there were some small movements in other directions. In the five games played in I went first in 4-5 of them. I only won the roll off 1-2 times. People were willing to give up going first for the extra die. That being said I only went 3-2 (my two losses were to two of the top eight players one of which won the whole thing). As far as team builds, yes there were a lot of teams that had Bard, but they all took slightly different approaches. I didn't see a single VS team. I saw several Lantern Ring teams a couple flying sidekick teams and some Beholder/Ultraman/Mr. M teams. So there was some variety.
    1. TheConductr's Avatar
      TheConductr -
      Quote Originally Posted by hwetzel View Post
      Just a thought here. This is the first WKO since Nats/Worlds and the massive amount of hate due to the first turn advantage. After that a large number of players quit playing the game or decided to stop playing competitively. That and the announcement of additional WKOs could be the reason for the drop. I think it might be a little early to start pressing the panic button.
      I don't think we're pressing the panic button. We're just trying to show the numbers. We're concerned about a few things and just bringing them up for discussion within the community. There's general concerns about the game that are felt by people on the casual and competitive arenas. We were just trying to voice them in a constructive way. I do agree that many people may have stepped away or hit the pause button after worlds for the reasons you mentioned. And with a lull of a few months between sets, it may have allowed them to move onto something else. Hopefully we WK can come up with a game plan to win back those players, keep the current ones happy, and win over more new players.
    1. hwetzel's Avatar
      hwetzel -
      Quote Originally Posted by TheConductr View Post
      I don't think we're pressing the panic button. We're just trying to show the numbers. We're concerned about a few things and just bringing them up for discussion within the community. There's general concerns about the game that are felt by people on the casual and competitive arenas. We were just trying to voice them in a constructive way. I do agree that many people may have stepped away or hit the pause button after worlds for the reasons you mentioned. And with a lull of a few months between sets, it may have allowed them to move onto something else. Hopefully we WK can come up with a game plan to win back those players, keep the current ones happy, and win over more new players.
      I didn't mean to infer that you or Isaac were pushing the panic button. In fact I believe the opposite. I do know that some people see the numbers and will choose to "follow the crowd". I'm just attempting to convey my faith in the community.
    1. TheConductr's Avatar
      TheConductr -
      Quote Originally Posted by hwetzel View Post
      I didn't mean to infer that you or Isaac were pushing the panic button. In fact I believe the opposite. I do know that some people see the numbers and will choose to "follow the crowd". I'm just attempting to convey my faith in the community.
      Bingo =)
    1. Lordfajubi's Avatar
      Lordfajubi -
      Quote Originally Posted by TheConductr View Post
      I don't think we're pressing the panic button. We're just trying to show the numbers. We're concerned about a few things and just bringing them up for discussion within the community. There's general concerns about the game that are felt by people on the casual and competitive arenas. We were just trying to voice them in a constructive way. I do agree that many people may have stepped away or hit the pause button after worlds for the reasons you mentioned. And with a lull of a few months between sets, it may have allowed them to move onto something else. Hopefully we WK can come up with a game plan to win back those players, keep the current ones happy, and win over more new players.
      Me and my friends have discussed these exact ideas and we have pretty much agreed that certain cards need removed from competitive play. We feel so strongly about this that a friend is opening a small play area in an existing art studio and it will be open to the public but the one caveat is there will be a house ban list. People get very vocal about bans in either support or rejection of them but like it or not certain cards do warp the entire game. Whether it helps or not time will tell but anything that increases fun and decreases min/maxing will hopefully bring some people back. We also want to see more theme teams, I love the team offerings here at reserve pool and it's a great idea. Why have all these affiliations if no one will use them. Even something as broad as heroes vs villains with no d&d would be refreshing. Just my 2 cents on the whole idea. Hope I see you guys for years to come.
    1. SlapsterMcFlash's Avatar
      SlapsterMcFlash -
      Quote Originally Posted by Lordfajubi View Post
      Me and my friends have discussed these exact ideas and we have pretty much agreed that certain cards need removed from competitive play. We feel so strongly about this that a friend is opening a small play area in an existing art studio and it will be open to the public but the one caveat is there will be a house ban list. People get very vocal about bans in either support or rejection of them but like it or not certain cards do warp the entire game. Whether it helps or not time will tell but anything that increases fun and decreases min/maxing will hopefully bring some people back. We also want to see more theme teams, I love the team offerings here at reserve pool and it's a great idea. Why have all these affiliations if no one will use them. Even something as broad as heroes vs villains with no d&d would be refreshing. Just my 2 cents on the whole idea. Hope I see you guys for years to come.
      You do of course realize that a ban list just creates a new meta that will necessitate a new ban list eventually, when people figure it out, right?
    1. Dave's Avatar
      Dave -
      Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
      You do of course realize that a ban list just creates a new meta that will necessitate a new ban list eventually, when people figure it out, right?
      This has not been the case in Magic.

      It comes down to designers - Eric and Mike - who MUST be cognizant of what they are putting into the game (and not just designing on a set-by-set basis, which is what it feels like they are doing), and a rules team who MUST rule things accurately and is willing to address it quickly.

      There should be many good things and ways to win, but for a long time the most viable strategy has been blocker-avoiding alpha strikes fueled by a just a handful of cards.

      If they are surgical and eliminate causes rather than symptoms then that's fine. Things can win, it's a problem of exploitative interactions that limit the breadth of viable decks and limit design space
    1. GRider10's Avatar
      GRider10 -
      I think prizes were also a factor in the decline. They were part of my decision to not attend. Last year you received a new card and die that you couldn't get anywhere else. This year it was just foils of cards i already own. Maybe not a major factor but it still can sway people who are borderline to not attend.