• Attack Zone Podcast 4: Evaluating Tournament Results

    With the dust settling from Worlds and a few weeks before the next set is released, it's time to look at the results of the tournament. How do we do that, and do it well? What are the common pitfalls? Dave & Randy examine all of this from playtesting to deck selection. We also take the most important lessons in deck construction that we've learned and apply it to some of the teams that were used at Worlds.

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    Comments 11 Comments
    1. Stormyknight's Avatar
      Stormyknight -
      I think it might have not posted correctly, I can't see it on iTunes or on RSS feed.
    1. RJRETRO's Avatar
      RJRETRO -
      I was able to download it?

      Anyway, 85% through the episode, and I must show some love for the poker terminology that popped up. This episode is relevant for other games as well, not just Dice Masters. Great job!
    1. Steele's Avatar
      Steele -
      Let me start by saying I love the site and love all the podcasts. However I really didn't like your take on this podcast.

      *on soap box*

      Spending over half the podcast talking about how the differences we saw in worlds really weren't different, is just short sighted and borderline condescending. Saying that dragons are like hulk is simply not accurate. They work differently. They play and trigger differently. They are very different. The end result is the same, to do or enable damage to be dealt but they are not the same.

      "They tried to go for win conditions we've already seen, it was just new ways of getting there." That's the point! Yes, the point of the game is to do damage to your opponent. That's what every single team needs to do. There are no other win conditions in this game. And there are limited ways to do that right now; direct damage, weenie, or clear and go big (or variant overcrush). If you want to keep using hulk as your win condition, keep doing that. But don't belittle using different cards to "do the same thing" because that's the point of the game. Everyone should be finding the cards that match their play style and work for them.

      You do a disservice to the game when you say the only thing really new is Constantine. Using new cards to do old things is new no matter how you break it down. Encourage that, don't belittle it.

      *off soap box*

      Like most of your podcasts you made a lot of really good points and observations. I did really like the your take on the rest of Dean's deck. The win condition really is only 2 cards. The rest is control. You're not going to use them in every game, but having them available is huge to be able to handle a wide and varied field.

      Randy's comment on bringing globals that your opponent couldn't use against you is also huge. And also why PXG should be retired from all serious decks, but that's an aside and another soap box. I'll just say Dean's comment on why he didn't run with it is the perfect reason why not to include it - be ready to use if it your opponent has it, but you get to have an extra card. And if they don't bring it, your deck should be fine with out it. PGX is the ultimate example of a global that is just as likely to help your opponent as it is to help you.

      Keep up the great work on the podcasts!
    1. Scorpion0x17's Avatar
      Scorpion0x17 -
      Great episode, and very timely, as what I want to write, in my blog, about my experience at UK Nationals is starting really take shape in my head, and I will be drawing on this episode for some of it.

      Oh, and I thought the comments regarding the same things done differently were very relevant and not at all belittling.
    1. Steele's Avatar
      Steele -
      Ok, admittedly, rereading my post it did come off a little more extreme than I intended. I guess my only point was that I'd like to see using new cards that do the "same" thing encouraged instead of called out as the same thing. (And really, Dragons and Hulk are not at all the same : )
    1. Dave's Avatar
      Dave -
      @Steele , all we are saying is that it is not really different in terms of a way to win. Obviously the cards are very different, and obviously we give all the credit in the world to the creativity these people had in getting to that point. However, as Randy said, there are only so many ways to get to 20 hit points. It's exciting that we're seeing different cards, but it doesn't fundamentally change the nature of the game. It's an evolution, not a revolution.

      Playing the game well also includes recognizing what is actually going to happen across the table. If you look at it and think "oh man, what are they going to do? I've never seen a team try to win with this!" Then you are in for a world of hurt. The important part about simplifying the teams, as we tried to, is to say that you need to be able to recognize what your opponent is trying to do to you. If you can't do that, you are immediately in a deep, deep hole.
    1. Walsh's Avatar
      Walsh -
      So the only matches I lost in the Quals were to a Green Lantern Will Power Kobold rush and to Nicks Spray team. Both matches were over before they started. I stood very little chance with my Qual team and I felt the need to respect both teams or give up on top 8.

      For Worlds, I did get lucky and dodged Kobold but I did not dodge spray and Common DCK did his job. That being said if I had it all to do again I would have dropped Spider-Man for Hulk GG as even though I didn't need Manticore, he would have saved the day and still helped in my match against Dane early on where as Spider-Man only really helped in a few games that I likely could have taken anyways.

      It felt like we had one extra viable option than I am used to countering in a tourney meta which made it really tough to make the right call with so few slots, kinda wished we had a one card sideboard.

      Really great tournament play from the Top 16, far beyond our years in skill level overall for the first huge event of such a new game.
    1. Shadowmeld's Avatar
      Shadowmeld -
      Quote Originally Posted by Walsh View Post
      It felt like we had one extra viable option than I am used to countering in a tourney meta which made it really tough to make the right call with so few slots, kinda wished we had a one card sideboard.
      We had a sideboard thread going a while back and the idea that came out on top (shamelessly plugging my idea) was to allow a two card sideboard, but no dice are allowed to change. This means you can swap common-uncommon-rare versions inset of a card, or you can change your basic actions. Like MtG sideboards this would only be in effect in Bo3 rounds, not in the swiss format Bo1s. This would have actually been perfect for you as you could have swapped between DCKs. However, the Hulk Spidey swap you are referring to wouldn't have flown.

      I feel your pain on all of the choices that were out there though, and it's only going to get worse with the sets that are landing soon. Here's to hoping we get a card deals cost-attack(minimum 0) damage to your opponent for each named character you field, so that common vixen makes the tourney meta!
    1. Dave's Avatar
      Dave -
      Quote Originally Posted by Walsh View Post
      So the only matches I lost in the Quals were to a Green Lantern Will Power Kobold rush and to Nicks Spray team. Both matches were over before they started. I stood very little chance with my Qual team and I felt the need to respect both teams or give up on top 8.

      For Worlds, I did get lucky and dodged Kobold but I did not dodge spray and Common DCK did his job. That being said if I had it all to do again I would have dropped Spider-Man for Hulk GG as even though I didn't need Manticore, he would have saved the day and still helped in my match against Dane early on where as Spider-Man only really helped in a few games that I likely could have taken anyways.

      It felt like we had one extra viable option than I am used to countering in a tourney meta which made it really tough to make the right call with so few slots, kinda wished we had a one card sideboard.

      Really great tournament play from the Top 16, far beyond our years in skill level overall for the first huge event of such a new game.
      I get why you did it of course - hope we weren't too tough on you my friend
    1. Walsh's Avatar
      Walsh -
      Not at all! Just figured I would weigh in.
    1. zeon20's Avatar
      zeon20 -
      I don't think its belittling to say that dragons are just a different version to hulk gg. The approach is different, but the win condition is the same with how they are both trying to sweep the field and swing in for lethal.

      I will say that I didn't rep swarm in a lot in my games that were streamed was because my opponent had some way of disrupting it whether it be the presence of human paladin or taunts from MR. F/Phoenix. My assessment to this match up against these cards I found it wasn't worth the ramp boost on the chance my opponent would disrupt it and clog up my own bag with kobolds without any swarm going on. This is not to say that I would say my team swarms just as wells as trubies, I think between the two of us he definitely deserves the title of "King of the Swarm" that jimmy gave him. But I will say that this team does swarm, it just didn't get a good chance to do it during some of my stream games.