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OrangeLion

Which cards to ban based upon the history of Dice Masters?

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History has shown us that when a deck is too dominate Wizkids will step in and ban cards that are vital to that team's success. Last spring, the Bard Blitz deck took the top three spots in a tournament leading up to World's in Ottawa. Weeks later, it's potency was cut down a notch when it's Swords of Revealing Light and Relentless basic action cards were officially banned. Wizkids did not ban any character cards; in this case most notably PXG and Bard himself. PXG and Bard then went on to win Worlds within a team that had much more control through the oppression served by Elf Thief and Oracle.

In more recent months, a Frontline, sidekick-based team rose to the a second place finish and put that non-character driven deck into the limelight. This also brought the basic action Frontline into the spotlight.
http://dm.retrobox.eu/?view&cards=1x...x129bff;3x32cw

The Springfield WKO this fall has shown us the power of the new RIP Hunter's chalkboard global being utilized as a reactionary tool and how Imprisoned not only brings control to a low-cost team but the ability to swing for lethal once Bard is in the field. http://www.thereservepool.com/conten...Springfield-MO

In the last couple weeks, the Beholder-Master Aberration decks that have not only taken numerous WKO titles but in even one tournament's case, swept the top three spots. Again, this sweep took place in Ottawa, any coincidence...
http://www.thereservepool.com/conten...O-Nov-5th-2016

All this recent history leads me to pose this question to all of the Dice Masters' community; do we need to ban additional cards?

If history repeats itself, Wizkids will ban the Frontline and Imprisoned basic action cards. These two cards are vital to the Beholder's success but is that the best answer...

1) There are only 132 basic action cards currently in the game according to http://dm.retrobox.eu/
2) We've already banned 2 of the basic actions.
3) That means 1.5% of the current basic actions are banned.
4) Recent set releases have not provided us with new basic actions to add to our collection.
5) Banning two additional basic actions would mean 3% of the current basic actions would be banned.

In a recent TRP blog, Firesypke states, "Ban PXG and assess other possible bannings."
http://www.thereservepool.com/entrie...he-Game-Part-1

1) PXG has been represented on all the following teams talked about in this blog:
-Bard Blitz Deck
-2016 World Championship Team
-Frontline, Sidekick-based Deck
-Beholder Decks
2) There are 1790 character and action cards currently available according to http://dm.retrobox.eu/
3) If PXG were banned, it would mean 1 out of 1790 cards would be banned.
4) That would mean only 0.0006% of current character and action cards would be banned.

Do we instead ban the Beholder himself? If we do, the super rare Ultraman would also have to be banned since their abilities are nearly identical. Still, having only two cards banned out of an already large pool of cards doesn't seem to be devastating to the long term success of the game.
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Do we ban Bard? He can make almost any team viable and he was put onto these Beholder teams as an alternate win condition due to his potency. His success since his release is unmatched and although a recent addition to the collection of cards, is his power detrimental to the long term health of the game?

I wrote this blog, not because I have the answers, but to start a conversation. I want to know your guys thoughts about how you see our beloved game growing in future months keeping this game's history in mind. The history has shown us that Wizkids is willing to act but even the first turn rule change does not change the fact that this Beholder Team is here to stay unless something is done. I love this game and would love to hear your thoughts about this blog and the current game state of competitive Dice Masters.

Bannings always seem to follow tournaments in Ottawa,
OrangeLion
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  1. BenSaidScott's Avatar
    In general I'm not a fan of banning cards, and I strongly disagree with the banning of Relentless and Swords. Both of those cards in my opinion were fine.

    However I strongly believe that Bard needs to be banned. Or at least nerfed in a variety of ways. It is clear that Bard is just too strong for a four cost character. His ability to make any team viable essentially, and to be able to do upwards of 50 damage on a regular basis in one turn is just unacceptable in my opinion. This is particularly true when there is no hard and steady true counter to him.

    This is no true in the case of the Beholder team, which in my opinion can be stopped with relative ease.
  2. memmek2k's Avatar
    One data point is not a good basis for a trend.

    I don't think any additional bannings need to occur. The competitive meta is relatively healthy - there are many viable win conditions. Apologies in Advance (Beholder+Imprisoned), Vicious Struggle, The Front Line, Bard-Rush, Bard-control, Lantern Ring (mask, fist, and bolt), Storm Wind-Rider, Flying Sidekicks, and Gobby have all seen Top 8 play in the last month.

    In terms of stopping Beholder+Imprisoned, you can turn it into a Bard-control mirror match with one teched in basic action - e.g. End of Days, Fireball, or The Oppression Begins.
  3. Jwannabe's Avatar
    1 rule change
    Transition/out of play on both turns.
    (For pxg and infinite loop teams)

    1 errata
    Bard does not buff himself. He buffs +1 for each unique attacker.
  4. SirFrankus's Avatar
    We ban PXG.

    Plenty of other ramp available now.

    Let's look at the history of game, and what state it was in prior to UXM, when AVX was the only set release.

    It was really tough to get to 6 and 7 cost characters.
    The only ramp I can think of right now, off the top of my head, was:
    Gearing Up
    Gambit
    Silver Surfer global.

    Insert something like PXG into UXM for a bunch of reasons.
    1- Too hard to get to 6+ costs
    2- TONS of globals in UXM, so naturally, if you are going to use a few on a turn, you'll need to roll a bit more dice.
    3- Bag management. Good use of PXG keeps a bag thin. Keeping a thinner bag facilitates points 1 and 2, while also speeding up your play to the point that the characters you want are getting drawn consistently each turn (or every other turn).
    PXG basically is one of the top tier forms of both churn AND ramp.


    Let's look at the game now.

    Fewer starter sets (most places you find globals are on BACs)
    Fewer globals (Deadpool has 1 global, many other sets don't have more than 1 or 2 useful global abilities).
    Other forms of ramp. These other forms don't streamline your game to the point of perfect ramp each turn, while still allowing for some nice churn and ramp.

    I'm not a fan of game breaking stuff, and in my opinion, the essence of this game is still the pool building aspect. PXG throws that out the window. Could you imagine a game of Dominion where, at the cost of discarding a card, you could draw a card? If that ability was available from your opponents first turn?

    I'm a bigger fan of finding ways to ramp. Like fielding and attacking with a bunch of weenies, getting them KO'd for a big next turn. Or Swarm. Or tied to an ability like on the new Shiklah.

    STAR labs I'm cool with because it's 2 different energy.
    Even villains pact and Resurrection are fine, because it's minimal ramp.

    PxG (And BEWD to a point), just speed things up too quickly, and I think the game would be better if it was gone. Game would be longer, which is a drawback, but perhaps there is something else that can be done to speed things up that isn't open the door to turn 3 or 4 kills?
  5. BenSaidScott's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SirFrankus
    We ban PXG.

    Plenty of other ramp available now.

    Let's look at the history of game, and what state it was in prior to UXM, when AVX was the only set release.

    It was really tough to get to 6 and 7 cost characters.
    The only ramp I can think of right now, off the top of my head, was:
    Gearing Up
    Gambit
    Silver Surfer global.

    Insert something like PXG into UXM for a bunch of reasons.
    1- Too hard to get to 6+ costs
    2- TONS of globals in UXM, so naturally, if you are going to use a few on a turn, you'll need to roll a bit more dice.
    3- Bag management. Good use of PXG keeps a bag thin. Keeping a thinner bag facilitates points 1 and 2, while also speeding up your play to the point that the characters you want are getting drawn consistently each turn (or every other turn).
    PXG basically is one of the top tier forms of both churn AND ramp.


    Let's look at the game now.

    Fewer starter sets (most places you find globals are on BACs)
    Fewer globals (Deadpool has 1 global, many other sets don't have more than 1 or 2 useful global abilities).
    Other forms of ramp. These other forms don't streamline your game to the point of perfect ramp each turn, while still allowing for some nice churn and ramp.

    I'm not a fan of game breaking stuff, and in my opinion, the essence of this game is still the pool building aspect. PXG throws that out the window. Could you imagine a game of Dominion where, at the cost of discarding a card, you could draw a card? If that ability was available from your opponents first turn?

    I'm a bigger fan of finding ways to ramp. Like fielding and attacking with a bunch of weenies, getting them KO'd for a big next turn. Or Swarm. Or tied to an ability like on the new Shiklah.

    STAR labs I'm cool with because it's 2 different energy.
    Even villains pact and Resurrection are fine, because it's minimal ramp.

    PxG (And BEWD to a point), just speed things up too quickly, and I think the game would be better if it was gone. Game would be longer, which is a drawback, but perhaps there is something else that can be done to speed things up that isn't open the door to turn 3 or 4 kills?
    Can't disagree with you more. PXG is a super strong card don't get me wrong. But it has its drawbacks, you are essentially wasting a space in your team to give yourself ramp, which also benefits your opponent as much as it benefits you. There are some really strong counters to it, Elf Thief, Oracle, Zatanna, Spray, Jinzo that mean bringing it is in itself a risk.

    Bard has none of these drawbacks.
  6. SirFrankus's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by BenSaidScott
    Can't disagree with you more. PXG is a super strong card don't get me wrong. But it has its drawbacks, you are essentially wasting a space in your team to give yourself ramp, which also benefits your opponent as much as it benefits you. There are some really strong counters to it, Elf Thief, Oracle, Zatanna, Spray, Jinzo that mean bringing it is in itself a risk.

    Bard has none of these drawbacks.
    Thanks for continuing the discussion. I wrote my old post up in a flurry and didn't feel like adding to my argument unless I knew someone was still reading.

    Lots of cards get brought for the global. Some action cards are brought just so someone can "use the ability". In either case, it is not a wasted spot if it helps your team more than your opponent.

    PXG is a global, so it is available to both sides...BUT now there are plenty of ways to make gloabls more one-sided (mostly that Oracle and Elf Thief. Going 1st was also a huge aide, but they've now lessened it's impact). Now my argument could be used against me here, but if a very competitive team can quickly cost you out even faster with PXG, and then hamper your ability to do the same, all of a sudden you are tying up 3 cards at least (PXG/Oracle/Elf Thief) to run a very competitive team that still wins most of the time.

    Again, of course counters are there, but those same counters can be on the PXG team and make the global one-sided.

    I agree with Bard, but without the speed of PXG can you still accomplish a turn 3 or 4 kill? I feel like Bard has plenty of counters especially if the Bard team doesn't have a turn 3 or 4 kill. After that initial Bard fielding, if the opponent has Cold Gun, OP Scarecrow, etc. there are options that allow you to semi-deal with it the remainder of the game.

    Bard is bad too, but without speed and/or a complete economy drain (which PXG provides) it is as able to be countered as anything else.

    I do wish that Bard either:
    1 - Cost 5
    2 - Didn't buff himself (I mean really? Bards usually are squishy dudes that hide while making everyone else a little bit better. They aren't in the fray and making everything, including themselves, juggernauts.)
    3 - On that note, only giving a max +2 to everything would work too.
    4 - Or only buffing A.
  7. OrangeLion's Avatar
    On the beholder team, Bard is a second/alternate win condition and seeing the speed at which the Beholder team can finish a game, is PXG more ban worthy in this instance? Or would it be better to target the basic actions directly since some Bard teams utilize them?
  8. memmek2k's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SirFrankus
    I agree with Bard, but without the speed of PXG can you still accomplish a turn 3 or 4 kill? I feel like Bard has plenty of counters especially if the Bard team doesn't have a turn 3 or 4 kill. After that initial Bard fielding, if the opponent has Cold Gun, OP Scarecrow, etc. there are options that allow you to semi-deal with it the remainder of the game.

    ...

    2 - Didn't buff himself (I mean really? Bards usually are squishy dudes that hide while making everyone else a little bit better. They aren't in the fray and making everything, including themselves, juggernauts.)
    The original Bard Blitz ran on Ring-Res, not PXG. In fact, it was more consistent on Ring-Res. Not sure why no one remembers this.

    Technically, you could run Beholder on Thousand Dragon-Limited Wish. It'd fire less often on T3, but you wouldn't need PXG.

    You can T2 Constantine now fairly reliably (~65% of the time going second you'll roll the energy), which delays Bard rush teams a turn, getting you reliably past T3/T4 (as much as anything with dice is reliable).

    If Bard didn't buff himself, I frankly see no effect on the current meta. That just means you need one more sidekick.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeLion
    On the beholder team, Bard is a second/alternate win condition and seeing the speed at which the Beholder team can finish a game, is PXG more ban worthy in this instance? Or would it be better to target the basic actions directly since some Bard teams utilize them?
    Apologies in Advance has never not been a mean team. It will be a mean team with or without PXG - if you slow it down, but still provide globals that allow purchase of a 7 cost (e.g. BEWD with Elf Theives, or Fabricate, or etc), it will still work just fine; it'll just start out with more control cards and less rush.
  9. GRider10's Avatar
    I always thought a global that says
    Pay mask - target character die can not use a when attacks ability.
    Sure you could redirect it or something but that would require another spot on the team for defense allowing the other team some time to get their counters out.
  10. SirFrankus's Avatar
    I forgot about ring res on bars blitz. Does that still work going first? I've not played many of those teams with the new rule. I just figured it toned them down a bit.
  11. BenSaidScott's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SirFrankus
    Thanks for continuing the discussion. I wrote my old post up in a flurry and didn't feel like adding to my argument unless I knew someone was still reading.

    Lots of cards get brought for the global. Some action cards are brought just so someone can "use the ability". In either case, it is not a wasted spot if it helps your team more than your opponent.

    PXG is a global, so it is available to both sides...BUT now there are plenty of ways to make gloabls more one-sided (mostly that Oracle and Elf Thief. Going 1st was also a huge aide, but they've now lessened it's impact). Now my argument could be used against me here, but if a very competitive team can quickly cost you out even faster with PXG, and then hamper your ability to do the same, all of a sudden you are tying up 3 cards at least (PXG/Oracle/Elf Thief) to run a very competitive team that still wins most of the time.

    Again, of course counters are there, but those same counters can be on the PXG team and make the global one-sided.

    I agree with Bard, but without the speed of PXG can you still accomplish a turn 3 or 4 kill? I feel like Bard has plenty of counters especially if the Bard team doesn't have a turn 3 or 4 kill. After that initial Bard fielding, if the opponent has Cold Gun, OP Scarecrow, etc. there are options that allow you to semi-deal with it the remainder of the game.

    Bard is bad too, but without speed and/or a complete economy drain (which PXG provides) it is as able to be countered as anything else.

    I do wish that Bard either:
    1 - Cost 5
    2 - Didn't buff himself (I mean really? Bards usually are squishy dudes that hide while making everyone else a little bit better. They aren't in the fray and making everything, including themselves, juggernauts.)
    3 - On that note, only giving a max +2 to everything would work too.
    4 - Or only buffing A.

    If there were no PXG it would slow down Bard, but it would also down any defence against Bard. He's only a four cost so he's still buyable on turn 1. I don't see dropping PXG as having any great effect on how effective Bard teams, if anything fielding sidekicks becomes an even bigger boon.

    While I think all your solutions are good, I do think they don't go far enough. I'd like to see the card changed so that it just gives Adventurers the boost. That would make DnD only sets stronger, while also keeping Bard meta relevant.
  12. BenSaidScott's Avatar
    I'd also really like to see a 'While Attacking' effect that cancels Action dice. This would be an excellent counter to Imprisoned.
  13. memmek2k's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SirFrankus
    I forgot about ring res on bars blitz. Does that still work going first? I've not played many of those teams with the new rule. I just figured it toned them down a bit.
    Like every other rush team, the new first turn rules significantly decrease the consistency (and this is true for VS, TFL, and Beholder as well). But you can still go T1 miri + sidekick; T2 bewd sidekick, buy bard, resurrection; T3 buy a jar, field bard and miri, pull the jar in, and ring in a sidekick. At this point you'd need have also rolled a sidekick and gotten either miri or bard on their 0 fielding cost faces to have lethal (and they'd need an empty field, or like one sidekick and one of you brought magic missile/slifer/carrion crawler). Or you could skip ringing the sidekick and red dragon for a cloudkill instead and res that in for T4.

    Ring res is definitely a little wonky going first with the new rules (enough so that Matt, one of our local guys, moved from ring-res to rip hunter when the new rule was announced a week before the tournament). But it definitely still works - you just don't get that option of a four-cost T1 purchase.
  14. OrangeLion's Avatar
    Ok, so we've gone discussed the pros and cons of banning PXG.

    Do you feel Wizkids made the correct discission on the past by banning Swords and Relentless then?

    Do you feel they should now continue that trend of banning basic actions and ban Imprisoned and Frontline?

    This will decrease the effectiveness and speed of Beholder/Ultraman/OP Thanos (I forgot to put that one in my original blog).
  15. zeon20's Avatar
    Bard is an issue, but I don't think it is the reason that we r so bottlenecked on variety of teams. If we look at the teams winning, we have bard teams n beholder teams who share a similar strategy of board clear to swinging in with a bunch of characters and we have mask ring teams who leverage a one sided Pxg game to make it unbearable to play against. Strangely enough these three teams all share elf thief, oracle and Pxg. I hear a lot of ppl ready to ban Pxg but my two concerns with that r the 6+ cost characters become too impractical for the competitive scene since I believe bard blitz will take over the meta with tsarina rush coming in a close second. I think a better solution to help open up the competitive meta n alleviate the first turn advantage even further is to rotate AVX out, ban bard, elf thief, n oracle n possibly jinzo. Bard teams would be gone, avx meta wont return to prominance, Mask ring wont be so oppresive, Beholder imrpison/Frontline can stay cause while strong, I think it's a pretty manageable team if u r allowed to have the energy to defend against it or at least ramp into something that can defend.
  16. memmek2k's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeLion
    Ok, so we've gone discussed the pros and cons of banning PXG.

    Do you feel Wizkids made the correct discission on the past by banning Swords and Relentless then?

    Do you feel they should now continue that trend of banning basic actions and ban Imprisoned and Frontline?

    This will decrease the effectiveness and speed of Beholder/Ultraman/OP Thanos (I forgot to put that one in my original blog).
    I agree with the Relentless ban. Coupled with Chalkboard global and the new first turn rules, the old, non-interactive T3 win teams are not viable now. Guy Gardner and Bard Blitz don't run with the same fervor. VS and TFL can be dismantled by a T2 oracle and are significantly less consistent with that aside (less coin-flippy).

    To my current knowledge, the only T3 win team that is viable in the present meta is Beholder, which has a glaring weakness in the opposing BACs. It's also weak to Hellblazer and buying their own Imprisoned. Basically, it's not a non-interactive game.

    I do not think Imprisoned and The Front Line should be banned. As stated, Beholder teams have key weaknesses that you can play around. I do, however, think Imprisoned needs ruling questions answered - essentially responses to the Detroit Rulings.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeon20
    Bard is an issue, but I don't think it is the reason that we r so bottlenecked on variety of teams. If we look at the teams winning, we have bard teams n beholder teams who share a similar strategy of board clear to swinging in with a bunch of characters and we have mask ring teams who leverage a one sided Pxg game to make it unbearable to play against. Strangely enough these three teams all share elf thief, oracle and Pxg. I hear a lot of ppl ready to ban Pxg but my two concerns with that r the 6+ cost characters become too impractical for the competitive scene since I believe bard blitz will take over the meta with tsarina rush coming in a close second. I think a better solution to help open up the competitive meta n alleviate the first turn advantage even further is to rotate AVX out, ban bard, elf thief, n oracle n possibly jinzo. Bard teams would be gone, avx meta wont return to prominance, Mask ring wont be so oppresive, Beholder imrpison/Frontline can stay cause while strong, I think it's a pretty manageable team if u r allowed to have the energy to defend against it or at least ramp into something that can defend.
    If you ban AVX, Elf Thief, Bard, Oracle, and Jinzo, but not PXG, don't The Front Line and Vicious Struggle become predominant again?
  17. Jwannabe's Avatar
    I put human paladin in every single team until relentless was banned. I was originally a dissenter, but I must now admit I was wrong. It WAS the right move.
  18. Jwannabe's Avatar
    Imprisoned and Frontline are available to both sides. They usually bring tools for you to abuse it as well. So I don't have a problem with them.

    I have already mentioned elsewhere that action wordings need to be cleaned up so it is clear what can be used as counters, as well as how they work with Mr. MXYZPTLK, Lady Deadpool, beholder, ultraman etc.

    Also Vicious Struggle somehow is untargetable because it immediately goes out of play. There are several other cards that fall into this category, but haven't been abused yet.

    I would like a general use of effect vs. Used by continously vs, other strange wording on actions and their counter cards to be cleaned up. The I want them reprinted as OP alt art cards with the new corrected/ universal wordings.

    I think wizkids can clean up the game by using OP kits to clean up old cards, so that going forward they can make generalized rulings based on standardized text. They want have to waste hours on individual questions about 5 different similarly worded cards.
  19. zeon20's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by memmek2k
    I

    If you ban AVX, Elf Thief, Bard, Oracle, and Jinzo, but not PXG, don't The Front Line and Vicious Struggle become predominant again?
    VS isn't as viable anymore thanks to the new FTR which forces the player to run red and risk giving the opponent a double buy option on turn 2. You also have to factor in that with avx out, the vs teams lose HT global and Surfer global, making them run solely on rolling enough fist for luke cage global, making them not as consistent enough to pull off a turn 3 kill. I think a large part of vs initial dominance at worlds was because most didn't know how to play it or knew how to play around it. As time passes more player are picking up how to play it and around it, and coupled with its reliance on going first makes this team too volatile for a serious competitive play.

    Frontline is somewhat in the same boat as VS in that its another volatile team strategy. All the tools they bring can be play by you as well. So unless a person is really feeling lucky to go first all the time, I doubt we will see much news in front line in the competitive scene until the team finds a way to make it more one sided affair (ala the beholder team).
  20. memmek2k's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by zeon20
    VS isn't as viable anymore thanks to the new FTR which forces the player to run red and risk giving the opponent a double buy option on turn 2. You also have to factor in that with avx out, the vs teams lose HT global and Surfer global, making them run solely on rolling enough fist for luke cage global, making them not as consistent enough to pull off a turn 3 kill. I think a large part of vs initial dominance at worlds was because most didn't know how to play it or knew how to play around it. As time passes more player are picking up how to play it and around it, and coupled with its reliance on going first makes this team too volatile for a serious competitive play.

    Frontline is somewhat in the same boat as VS in that its another volatile team strategy. All the tools they bring can be play by you as well. So unless a person is really feeling lucky to go first all the time, I doubt we will see much news in front line in the competitive scene until the team finds a way to make it more one sided affair (ala the beholder team).
    There's your own VS team though that would only lose Surfer global and doesn't run any of the control cards you consider banning. (which, that team has won a regional PDC, the Chicago WKO, and is the *only* team that I had trouble with in playtesting)

    I need to do more testing (it's on the backburner right now), but TFL has cards to make it one sided. Maria Hill: Deputy Director and Doctor Light: Actual Doctor come to mind. Maria Hill is easy to get out T2, as well, if you bring CBG.
  21. zeon20's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by memmek2k
    There's your own VS team though that would only lose Surfer global and doesn't run any of the control cards you consider banning. (which, that team has won a regional PDC, the Chicago WKO, and is the *only* team that I had trouble with in playtesting)

    I need to do more testing (it's on the backburner right now), but TFL has cards to make it one sided. Maria Hill: Deputy Director and Doctor Light: Actual Doctor come to mind. Maria Hill is easy to get out T2, as well, if you bring CBG.
    To be fair, both of those tournaments were pre FTA rules. And I was lucky enough to not only go first on my top 4 and top 2 games, but my opponent miss some key rolls that could've easily turned the tide of the game in their favor. And trouble is expected, the team was designed to give slower pxg bard teams some annoyance. Its still quite vulnerable to fast pxg bard teams as well as non pxg bard teams.

    Both VS and TFL have ways to make it one sided (Captain America and Doctor light respectively), but those ways are quite vulnerable to removal or blanking. Also trying to make these teams one sided only adds a turn for the opponent to come up with ways to counters. U can also use these one sided tech pieces as counters to these type of teams if u feel that they are gonna be that big of a threat to ur team.
  22. memmek2k's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by zeon20
    To be fair, both of those tournaments were pre FTA rules. And I was lucky enough to not only go first on my top 4 and top 2 games, but my opponent miss some key rolls that could've easily turned the tide of the game in their favor. And trouble is expected, the team was designed to give slower pxg bard teams some annoyance. Its still quite vulnerable to fast pxg bard teams as well as non pxg bard teams.

    Both VS and TFL have ways to make it one sided (Captain America and Doctor light respectively), but those ways are quite vulnerable to removal or blanking. Also trying to make these teams one sided only adds a turn for the opponent to come up with ways to counters. U can also use these one sided tech pieces as counters to these type of teams if u feel that they are gonna be that big of a threat to ur team.
    Fair enough; we didn't do much playtesting against it after the FTA rule change (the only MO-based player I know that handles your teams well wasn't planning on taking it to Springfield after winning Chicago).

    Though your contention would be that bard would be banned, so one of the team's major weaknesses would be gone.

    I mean, at this point, we're definitely into counters-of-counters, which is a useless discussion. I just wanted to point out that with your proposed bans, I don't think the meta becomes inherently any healthier, just different.

    Locally, we've been pondering the viability of rotating the first year of sets out - AVX, UXM, JL, BFF, and YGO. That would shake things up quite a bit.
  23. archivist's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by memmek2k
    I mean, at this point, we're definitely into counters-of-counters, which is a useless discussion. I just wanted to point out that with your proposed bans, I don't think the meta becomes inherently any healthier, just different.
    Don't understand what is meant by a 'healthy meta' (as opposed to an 'unhealthy meta').

    What comes to mind is analogous to saying a 'healthy disease'.

    {not intended to be argumentative}
  24. zeon20's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by memmek2k
    Fair enough; we didn't do much playtesting against it after the FTA rule change (the only MO-based player I know that handles your teams well wasn't planning on taking it to Springfield after winning Chicago).

    Though your contention would be that bard would be banned, so one of the team's major weaknesses would be gone.

    I mean, at this point, we're definitely into counters-of-counters, which is a useless discussion. I just wanted to point out that with your proposed bans, I don't think the meta becomes inherently any healthier, just different.

    Locally, we've been pondering the viability of rotating the first year of sets out - AVX, UXM, JL, BFF, and YGO. That would shake things up quite a bit.
    I think the VS teams weakness of big explosive splash damage will stay thanks to front line and guy rush teams.

    I disagree about it not being healthier. The most unhealthy aspect in my opinion of the game is that you can bring pxg, oracle, and elf thief and you can force your opponent to ramp slower than you, and deny them options to defend themselves with energy globals and abilities on your turn. You could argue that my dragon team back then banked on denying teams pxg usage to slow them down enough to make dragons viable, but at the very least I relied on my opponent bringing pxg. Today's meta if your opponent brings pxg, oracle, and elf theif your forced to be slower and denied options to interact during your opponents turn. Which is probably why all of the non bard teams (VS, Front line, Beholder front line) post oracle are trying to finish the game by turns 3/4 because its really hard to play past those turns without mirroring the approach yourselves (ie mask ring). I think other than the VS teams in chicago, and my team, every winning wko team list so far has been comprised of a combination of pxg, elf thief and oracle regardless of whether they were running a beholder team, lantern ring team, or a bard team. Bard is an issue, but honestly it is not the only common element that is making this meta restrictive. I would also point that first turn advantage would be even less now with elf thief and oracle out. Players never really complained so much about how big of an advantage it was until these two popped up and for good reason.

    I'm not sure removal of all those set would make it better. I feel like the removal of pxg and leaving bard in with the mirri just forces the game into a blitz style only meta. Ring teams would be too slow and beholder teams would be dead and I dont know if competitively there could be anything that could match up to blitz style well. At least I haven't found one anyways.
  25. memmek2k's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by archivist
    Don't understand what is meant by a 'healthy meta' (as opposed to an 'unhealthy meta').

    What comes to mind is analogous to saying a 'healthy disease'.

    {not intended to be argumentative}
    I mean, sometimes you want to get cowpox-meta, so you don't get smallpox-meta, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeon20
    ...
    Today's meta if your opponent brings pxg, oracle, and elf theif your forced to be slower and denied options to interact during your opponents turn. Which is probably why all of the non bard teams (VS, Front line, Beholder front line) post oracle are trying to finish the game by turns 3/4 because its really hard to play past those turns without mirroring the approach yourselves (ie mask ring). I think other than the VS teams in chicago, and my team, every winning wko team list so far has been comprised of a combination of pxg, elf thief and oracle regardless of whether they were running a beholder team, lantern ring team, or a bard team. Bard is an issue, but honestly it is not the only common element that is making this meta restrictive. I would also point that first turn advantage would be even less now with elf thief and oracle out. Players never really complained so much about how big of an advantage it was until these two popped up and for good reason.
    I might be misunderstanding you lol, but I think the way I approach Elf Thief and Oracle is different from you. I did not bring PXG to the Springfield WKO. Oracle was actually on my team because of VS and TFL, not other PXG Bard teams. It was the only way I could slow them down enough to keep up.

    Elf Thief was not on my team and was not necessary before the FTA rules; now I highly recommend having two 2-cost characters of differing energy types. He was almost always just a body that I only fielded once; the team would have worked just as well buying Beast. Hellblazer is still the stronger control card imo; he stops thief, dwiz, storm, and gobby, and slows down beholder and bard. My ideal T1 buy was CBG Hellblazer in for T2.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeon20
    I'm not sure removal of all those set would make it better. I feel like the removal of pxg and leaving bard in with the mirri just forces the game into a blitz style only meta. Ring teams would be too slow and beholder teams would be dead and I dont know if competitively there could be anything that could match up to blitz style well. At least I haven't found one anyways.
    Blitz won't run without resurrection. It also would be hurt by not having access to prismatic spray or BEWD.
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