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Thread: Beholder - Master Aberration + When attacks alone character + Polymorph + other cards

  1. #1

    Beholder - Master Aberration + When attacks alone character + Polymorph + other cards

    When Beholder is assigned first to attack first you get to play every BAC. If you then use Polymorph as your first BAC and Polymorph Beholder into a character like Wolverine, is Wolverine now attacking alone or did he miss his window to trigger? Do you also fully resolve Beholder's ability and get to play every other BAC? Could you then target Wolverine with Dimension Door and make him unblockable? At first I was sure this didn't work, but re-reading Beholder it doesn't read like it triggers after all attackers are declared, it reads like it triggers when you decide you're assigning it first but before you've fully declared all of your attacks.

  2. #2
    Im not entirely sure...but Polymorph says swap a fielded character with one in your used pile. Technically, Beholder is not in the field anymore since he is now attacking and in the attack zone...so I'm not sure you could swap him with Wolverine. Maybe someone else could weigh in on that part.

    As for your other questions...if we assume you can swap with Wolverine...I would say yes, you would get to complete the Beholder ability, as once it is triggered, it is triggered and should be completed. And...yes, once all the crazy BAC shenanigans is complete...Wolverine is attacking alone, so his ability would also trigger.

    One way to get around the Beholder ability completeness question, would be to just use Polymorph last out of all the BACs that trigger. I think this is a situation where there is a bunch of simultaneous effects happening, so the active player would get to decide the order

  3. #3
    The attack zone is part of the field so the Polymorph trick is legal.

    As long as Wolverine is the only die in battle I imagine he qualifies as attacking alone.

    Fun tricks with beholder!

  4. #4
    Swapping changes the die you are using, but not the star or timing. Because wolverine's bonuses trigger "when he attacks" and beholder's ability triggers "when he attacks" you will be unable to trigger both effects if you swap them.

    As for resolving all of the basic actions after the swap, I believe that would be allowed. If you used D door on the swapped in wolverine he would be unlockable.

  5. #5
    The order of operations is:

    1. Active player assigns all attackers.
    2. Active player resolves all effects resulting from attackers being assigned.
    3. Inactive player assigns all blockers.
    Etc...

    All of the effects in question occur during step 2, not step 1.

  6. #6
    Wolverine's ability doesn't actually say "When assigned to attack...do X". It is just a check to see if Wolverine is attacking alone, which would suggest to me that it applies when resolving damage. If he is alone in the attack zone when damage is referenced...he gets buffed by his own card text. My vote still goes to Beholder completing his ability, swapping with Wolverine, then wolverine getting his bonus becuase he is alone in the attack zone.

  7. #7
    Let me extend theorder of operations:

    1. Active player assigns all attackers.
    2. Active and inactive players resolve all effects resulting from attackers being assigned.
    3. Inactive player assigns all blockers.
    4. Active and inactive players resolve all effects resulting from blockers being assigned.
    5. Active and inactive players may play globals. Active player may play actions.
    6. Damage assigned simultaneously.
    7. Active and inactive players resolve all effects resulting from damage being dealt and received.
    8. Attack Step ends.

    There simply is no other point at which his ability triggers.

    It is not triggered by him taking damage.

    It is not triggered by blockers being declared.

    It is triggered by him being assigned to attack.

    Therefor the effect resolves fully on step 2.

  8. #8
    I guess I'm saying...becuase of the way it is worded, I don't think it is an ability that needs to "trigger". It almost feels like a "While Active" ability to me, which would imply it is always "on", and therefore it would apply when resolving damage. "While Wolverine is active, when Wolverine attacks alone, he gains +4A and +4D".

    I could be totally wrong here as I can also see your point. Just some healthy debate.

  9. #9
    It is just a check to see if Wolverine is attacking alone, which would suggest to me that it applies when resolving damage.
    To follow that logic a step further Meatman, does that mean he doesn't get the +4D until the damage step? Thus I could Magic Missile him twice during the globals step and he'd be a non-issue?

    To be more specific to the written text: "When Wolverine attacks alone, he gains +4A and +4D."
    When - at the time
    he - Wolverine
    Attacks - is declared an attacker
    alone, - and no one else is declared an attacker
    he gains +4A and +4D. - effect.

    The conditional part listed above is meant to be read as such. If it read "If Wolverine is attacking alone, He gets +4A and +4D." then anytime he is seen to be attacking alone he gets that bonus, but the difference between "when he attacks" and "if he is attacking" means much in the matters of timing. I know that the wording is subtly different, but they really do mean different things when it comes to effect resolution.

    The reason there is a difference is to add counter-play to Wolverine's effect and to prevent some wonky shenanigans where you attack with two wolverines, let one get blocked and KO or Distract him so that the other Wolverine gets the +4/+4. Designers did not want this ability to have that functionality, so they decided the buff would only be applied in a smaller window, instead of being triggered anytime he is seen to be attacking alone. As we have all seen, the character and ability are strong enough as is, and doesn't need the option for complex tricks.

    TL;DR Attacks does not equal Attacking

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    To be more specific to the written text: "When Wolverine attacks alone, he gains +4A and +4D."
    When - at the time
    he - Wolverine
    Attacks - is declared an attacker
    alone, - and no one else is declared an attacker
    he gains +4A and +4D. - effect.
    ^ This.

  11. #11
    My thought was that once you are in the attack zone, you are in a perpetual state of "attack" until the end of the entire attack step. So if he is the only one in the attack zone, even though he wasn't there when attackers were assigned, he is now attacking, so if he is alone, his ability would kick in immidiately, as he is attacking, and he is alone. The two critiria as written on the card are met...is he attacking, yes...is he alone, yes...

    When I said his effect would kick in when damage was resolved, I suppose I meant whenever the Attack or Damage value of Wolvie would need to be referenced. So, the Magic Missle use during globals stage to KO him wouldn't apply. Sorry I wasn't clear there.

    I suppose what we need to define here is...what is meant by "When X Attacks Alone"? Is this the same as "When X is Assigned to Attack Alone"? If it were the same, why wouldn't they have just used the "When X is Assigned to Attack" wording on the Wolverine card. There are other cards in the AVX set that say "When assigned to attack" (Punisher). This is why I thought the Wolverine buff ability would apply differently, and would apply similar to a "While Active" effect.

    Maybe I'm still way out to lunch and I need to be thinking of this differently...

  12. #12
    For effects that are 'always on during a given phase or phases', they use "while".

    For effects that are 'switched on in response to something happening', they use "when".

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    For effects that are 'always on during a given phase or phases', they use "while".

    For effects that are 'switched on in response to something happening', they use "when".
    Agreed. It comes down to the difference between "When" and "While/if" and to the difference between "attacks" and "is attacking". When specifies a moment in time, where while determines a range of time. Attacks is also a moment, though I can see it seeming to stretch for an extended time, but in DM, to Attack is to declare yourself as an attacker. After that you are either attacking or an attacker, but you can't again "Attack". Hopefully that makes sense. To put it another way, when a character attacks they are made an attacker. From there on they are attacking and cannot attack again. And to put it a third way, being declared as an attacker is the same making an attack.

    Either way, I agree with you on the confusion WK creates between set wording. The BEST example of this is spend versus pay. You pay energy to activate effects, but did you know you can also SPEND energy to activate effects. check out this: http://dm.retrobox.eu/?search&text=spend&sort=3.1

  14. #14
    Okay...I gotchya. Effectively, "When Attacking" is to be considered the same thing as "When Assigned to Attack". I was thinking that "Attacking" was more of a continious state once a die ends up in the attack zone, rather than an instance that occurs during the first part of the attack step.

    Good thing is that I don't think this sort of verbage on the Wolverine card is used much on other cards. The "When Assigned to Attack" seems more prevalent and likely done to ensure a clearer distinction.

  15. #15
    So does the word "immediately" in Beholder's text actually mean nothing? The word "first" seems to just mean "you may activate this ability if you're not an idiot". As Beholder is worded you'd think you're in declare attacks, you say is Beholder is attacking, do shenanigans, then finish declaring attacks - but that doesn't actually follow game logic at all it seems.

  16. #16
    Well, the "immediately" could just be there to make sure you don't go to Assign Blockers first.

  17. #17
    And I think "first" is just to stop you from triggering the ability twice if you attack with two Beholders.

  18. #18
    It's probably so that the action dice shenanigans necessarily happen before other things that happen at the beginning of the attack step: Punisher KOs, Black Widow spinning/damage, etc. Depending on things that happen with the action dice, there may not be targets for some of those effects.

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