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Thread: Tier 1 end conditions or Why all the AVX

  1. #1

    Tier 1 end conditions or Why all the AVX

    Hi Everyone,

    First things this is my first post, and I am sorry if it is long but please bear with me and try to read it to the end.
    The Topic is End conditions and the meta and where it is going.
    I get to play in my first big local unlimited/mixed tourney this month. One where there are going to be a lot of really good players who know the meta, people like myself who watched nationals and read about Canadian Nationals. (Although I still have not seen the top 8 teams from Canadian Nationals, if there is a list please point it my way.)

    We have seen the end condition characters.
    Nova- Human Rocket
    Black Widow – Tsarina
    Green Goblin – Gobby
    Wolverine – Former Weapon 10
    Hulk – Both Green Goliath and Jade Hulk
    Jinzo – Trap Destroyer
    Storm- Wind Rider
    Human Torch – Johnny Store
    And to an extent Venom - Angelo Fortunato

    Here is my issue I do not think Jinzo is a complete End Game. He helps (A LOT, and I still really want to own him some day.) but a player can simply slow ramp are take some hits to remove him and in come the rest of the end game conditions.

    Now we have had 5 sets come out.
    AVX
    UCX
    Yugioh
    D&D
    DC

    With each set we have seen to strategy add-ons PXG, Blue-Eyes, Polymorph and of course Constantine (First to head examples)
    So these have all changed gameplay, I agree full heartedly. Added control and ramp choices, even cancels certain old end game conditions, with Constantine out Storm, Gobby and Tsarina have all taken some hits, HOWEVER!! And finally to the question at hand, WHAT ARE THE NEW END CONDITIONS.

    I mean in limited, and constructed there are new end conditions sure. But that is because they are limited to each set.
    But even with the inclusion of DC is World going to see the same end conditions as the last 2 giant events? Why is there such a lack of new set cards that scare people.

    Uncanny X-men – brought speed and ramp
    Yugioh gave us control
    D&D brought actions to the forward.
    DC is new I admit, and gave us Constantine one could argue the most versatile card in the game (Meaning it works with agro/control/midrange teams equally.
    But not one of these sets has brought any significant end game conditions.
    In a game based on killing (Figuratively) your opponent, there doesn’t seem to be anything new.
    88% of the end conditions listed above are AVX.
    The other 12% Jinzo isn’t even a solid end game.

    So really what am I missing?

    Is the reason because veteran players are used to these conditions? Is it familiarity, but even looking and looking over the sets in the game I cannot find new end conditions that work at a Tier 1 level.

    I really want to hear what others are thinking. Am I wrong? Why is this?

    In the end really it comes down to what am I missing?

    Thank You for reading this, and I hope it did not come off as a rant. It is not really.

  2. #2
    Iceman has been used as such.

    Firestorm has all the trappings of a bomb.

    Any of the low cost Avengers, frankly.

    One of the first UxM decks was Nasty Boy.

    Jocasta looks stellar.

    The AvX cards are what people are the most familiar with using/manipulating and because of the supply issue there are others out there who are just now discovering/immersing themeselves in the set.

    Plus, it's a meta. Monkey see monkey do... but some of the cards you list, notably Nova, ONLY became a thing because of new cards. New stuff makes you look back at the old and say "Heeeey, I can try that now..."

  3. #3
    That Makes a lot of sense. OK thanks Dave. I will use that looking back and current and see what comes to my head.

  4. #4
    I'll also add that Hulk is a big deterrent for Widow and Gobby. They weren't used as win conditions in most games at Nats.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I'll also add that Hulk is a big deterrent for Widow and Gobby. They weren't used as win conditions in most games at Nats.
    Not sure about US nats as much, but in Canada, green goliath was being used as a mid-to late game win condition if weapon ten or tsarina were not able to end the game, or if you were focusing on nova or some other alternate win (such as flying sidekicks). Field a bunch of things, ping hulk, kill your opponents dudes, swing for 20 to end it. At least throughout the lower tables.

  6. #6
    I mean that Gobby and Widow weren't used that way. Hulk absolutely was. Heck, he was mine.

  7. #7
    I saw it happen with gobby once, and only once. I think that`s enough to write it off considering how many people were playing him and not using him as a win-con. But now that I re-read your post, that looks much clearer. Hulk for el-presidente.

  8. #8
    Yes it seems like hulk was the favorite win condition. Even with wolverine. I think gobby and storm are not to valid anymore because of constantine. In fact he kinda kills a lot of control when fielded becomes difficult. However who in DC/Yugioh/D&D/UXM would you bring to win if one day they took away AVX. I am trying to get some ideas. Jinzo is there, and I agree with Dave that Firestorm has promise, the constant growing bolt team is becoming evident. But like Super Pawns it has one significant flaw, sidekick dice.

  9. #9
    Why are sidekicks a problem for Firestorm? It's the common I like.

    Also consider that Overcrush is becoming more prevalent. Retaliation is real with Villains, expect them to come into their own.

  10. #10
    No what I mean is super pawns flaw is rolling 1 side of the die as your end condition. Firestorm has some issues with just bolt characters. Bolt synergy is a big thing but since that can cause problems with single energy teams. as there will be the time you role no bolts/wilds. Which I think is limiting.

  11. #11
    Oh. I've been messing with it and haven't had issue. You just can't go mono bolt. I used a few extra characters for control or direct damage that were non-bolts.

    The other thing I'd say is that we're a year in and it's not a huge pool yet. The first set face is some bombs and subsequent sets have given us tools and tricks and mitigation. That's OK.

    I mean, MtG has had Khans of Tarkir out since September and despite two more sets coming out, the Abzan stuff continues to be a strong deck (though not THE deck). Go and grab some Seige Rhinos and Charms and run. The meta takes more time to shape than this. We have about one MtG block's worth of cards right now. That's not a lot. Double this and add another 250 and THATS a standard constructed environment.

  12. #12
    That is true. I remember MTG back in alpha, unlimited and then Arabian Nights and Legends. Those cards were all super powerhouse and they became weaker in the following sets for three sets before I stopped playing. With the teasers coming for Ultron, I think that will be the next set with a lot of End Conditions.

  13. #13
    Comparing the size of the sets to mtg I believe is a mistake. With DM you pick 8 cards that's it. With mtg you typically run 16-24 land leaving 36-44 non-land. These non-land can be in multiples of up to 4 each, though many times you want less. If you assume exactly 4 of each then you are looking at 9-11 distinct cards comprising your deck. In addition you have a 15 card sideboard for tournament mtg, let's call that 3 more distinct cards. What this means is you are typically building a mtg deck out of at least 12+ distinct cards. That's at minimum 50% more distinct cards for a given deck than a DM team. By my count there are (ignoring basic actions) 122 + 116 + 128 + 110 + 128 = 604 non basic actions available now for DM. According to wikipedia the latest mtg block + core set totals 987 cards. So the available DM cards vs mtg cards for an entire block pro-rated for size of decks is, right now, about the same.

    TLDR: DM is releasing way too fast. They have in just over a year released 2 years worth of content.

  14. #14
    22-24 land is standard unless you are playing limited. Completely disagree.

    And of the remaining 36 cards you tend to have MULTIPLE 4-ofs.

    Further, in our game you have additional restrictions - just two of the 50ish basic actions and no clones of characters, so with each character you take you also limit yourself by an additional 2-6 cards depending on how many sets they've been in.

    Finally, Standard format is TWO blocks + core. Not one.

  15. #15
    @Evilnuff, OK but since I have not played magic in a while how do you feel the end condition is vs MTG?

  16. #16
    Well, currently in Standard it's mostly mono red, esper Dragons, Abzan, and Jeskai Tokens, I think? Still some Devotion I think?

    Modern is a completely non-interactive format - fire a combo within 3-6 turns or lose.

  17. #17

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