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Thread: With Enrage, can you force an opponent's die to attack their immediate next turn?

  1. #1

    With Enrage, can you force an opponent's die to attack their immediate next turn?

    I'm playing someone online and I used Enrage targeting his character and he said that since all effects are until "end of turn" it doesn't actually force the dude to have to attack, since the effect would have ended at the end of my turn because it doesn't specify otherwise.

    However, it says "next opportunity;" I'm of the opinion that if there was something preventing a character from attacking (like my opponent has Hellblazer so the turn I field it I can't attack, even if I Enrage it, I assume), and something prevented it the next turn as well, if I Enraged it, it might have to wait three turns, but at its "next opportunity," which could be in three turns possibly, that die has to attack.

    Anyway, my basic question is, can Enrage be used to force your opponents' die to attack you on their immediate next turn? My opponent seemed very against that idea.

  2. #2
    I say yes. I've always imagined the card worked this way.

  3. #3
    Thank you for making me feel better :P. I just tried posting it in the Wizkids Rules Forum, using proper formatting and whatnot, so hopefully it gets answered.

    I can't imagine it not working that way - I've always seen it as both offensive and defensive, and never had that questioned before, and seen it played that way by others. The "next opportunity" text to me honestly makes me feel like if a character has some global or other ability keeping it from attacking for 4 turns in a row, if that was used on it, it still has to attack the first chance it gets.

    That "next opportunity" text isn't on any other Dice Masters card that I'm aware of.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    I'm playing someone online and I used Enrage targeting his character and he said that since all effects are until "end of turn" it doesn't actually force the dude to have to attack, since the effect would have ended at the end of my turn because it doesn't specify otherwise.

    However, it says "next opportunity;" I'm of the opinion that if there was something preventing a character from attacking (like my opponent has Hellblazer so the turn I field it I can't attack, even if I Enrage it, I assume), and something prevented it the next turn as well, if I Enraged it, it might have to wait three turns, but at its "next opportunity," which could be in three turns possibly, that die has to attack.

    Anyway, my basic question is, can Enrage be used to force your opponents' die to attack you on their immediate next turn? My opponent seemed very against that idea.
    I am unsure I can provide a definitive answer but there are other characters that provide effects outside the turn they are initiated within. In my opinion Constantine is an example of this type of effect.


    The effect is initiated at the end of the active players turn, then takes affect during the opponents turn. This seems similar to the Enrage Basic Action, with only one difference; it is not explicit on the card.
    Last edited by fun4willis; 05-22-2015 at 05:35 PM. Reason: included card graphic

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    My opponent seemed very against that idea.
    I wasn't "very against" it. I just don't think it does work that way. But we ended up playing it your way anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by fun4willis View Post
    I am unsure I can provide a definitive answer but there are other characters that provide effects outside the turn they are initiated within. In my opinion Constantine is an example of this type of effect.


    The effect is initiated at the end of the active players turn, then takes affect during the opponents turn.
    Constantine says "before your opponents Clear and Draw", not "at the end of your turn", or even "after your Clean Up".

    The effect, in my opinion, is initiated at the start of your opponent's turn and lasts until the end of their turn.

    And this is why I think Enrage doesn't roll over in to the next turn:

    From the DC Rule Book (Page 20):
    POWERS, ABILITIES, AND CARD TEXT
    Card text that names a character only considers your characters for
    its effects. Your cardís text doesnít trigger because your opponent has
    the same character, nor do your dice get a bonus from your opponentís
    cards of the same name.
    Unless otherwise specified, card effects and bonuses end at the end
    of a turn.
    (emphasis mine)

    And, from http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=3816:
    If used during your opponent's turn or during your Attack Step (or during your Main Step and you purchase no more dice this turn), it doesn't carry forward. The effect goes away at end of turn because it isn't a While Active effect.
    (emphasis mine)

    The Enrage action is not a While Active effect, and it doesn't, in my opinion specify otherwise, therefore, it goes away at the end of the turn.

  6. #6
    If Enrage said next turn instead of next opportunity, would you believe that it lasted until next turn?

    By using the word opportunity instead of turn it allows the card to be used either offensively or defensively.

    I agree that Wiz Kids wording is unique on this card, but it is fairly clear in intent and with the above analysis it seems to comply with the "unless otherwise specified" clause of the rulebook.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I wasn't "very against" it. I just don't think it does work that way. But we ended up playing it your way anyway.



    Constantine says "before your opponents Clear and Draw", not "at the end of your turn", or even "after your Clean Up".

    The effect, in my opinion, is initiated at the start of your opponent's turn and lasts until the end of their turn.

    And this is why I think Enrage doesn't roll over in to the next turn:

    From the DC Rule Book (Page 20):

    (emphasis mine)

    And, from http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=3816:

    (emphasis mine)

    The Enrage action is not a While Active effect, and it doesn't, in my opinion specify otherwise, therefore, it goes away at the end of the turn.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to call you out or anything, I guess I exaggerated, we just seemed to spend a good five minutes or so of unsureness.

    But I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend or anything, it was just me telling a story and exaggerating I suppose, my bad.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    If Enrage said next turn instead of next opportunity, would you believe that it lasted until next turn?

    By using the word opportunity instead of turn it allows the card to be used either offensively or defensively.

    I agree that Wiz Kids wording is unique on this card, but it is fairly clear in intent and with the above analysis it seems to comply with the "unless otherwise specified" clause of the rulebook.
    Thanks for the input. That's exactly my thinking.

    I've been playing HeroClix for over four years and dealing with WizKids and their "idiocracy" style of running a business and writing ability text, and when there is unique wording like that, it means something.

    I never even thought to question it, to be honest.

    *Crossing fingers* Hoping the WizKids rules forum answers me, I made it as simple a question as possible in the right format.

  9. #9
    @Shadowmeld :

    I don't see that the word opportunity overrides the effect stopping at the end of turn.

    But, let's say it does, and you use it in your attack step, on your character does that mean they then have to attack in two turns time?

    And what if I've named a character with Constantine, you field it, then Enrage it in your main step, does that then last until two turns time?

  10. #10
    Not to offend again, but I don't think Blue Eyes White Dragon is a good example in this instance.

    There is very different intent and wording. Blue eyes doesn't say you must buy the dice at your "next opportunity." If it did, then I'd say if you could buy a die on your opponents' turn legally somehow, then you'd have to at your next opportunity.

    That's very specific and unique.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I don't see that the word opportunity overrides the effect stopping at the end of turn.

    But, let's say it does, and you use it in your attack step, on your character does that mean they then have to attack in two turns time?

    And what if I've named a character with Constantine, you field it, then Enrage it in your main step, does that then last until two turns time?
    What I've been posting if you read my previous ones is that yes, if there are effects keeping a character from attacking, if they've been Enraged, as soon as they can attack, even if they're stopped by other abilities for four turns, they would have to.

    I guess I'll post that question also, but I didn't wanna ask too many questions in the same rules topic and have it get rejected for being too complicated.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    My last post was directed at Shadowmeld, not you, Jesse, you just posted whilst I was composing it, so it looks like I was responding to you, when I wasn't, I'll go back and edit it.

    And, thank you for the compliment.

  14. #14
    First, you did not answer the question about next turn versus next opportunity. If the swap was made would that carry over to the next turn even though the rules say that effects end?

    Second, if you agree that that would be the case, then "next opportunity" would be a very badly worded way of saying, in that character's owner's next attack step. The Enrage effect is similar to Mr. Fantastic and Phoenix globals and while this ruling doesn't deal with attackers, it still applies.
    As we can see, can't like Constantine "trump" musts, and while this wording could still be interpreted to be more complicated, the easiest solution to counter the enrage must, is to give the target a can't before it can declare an attack.

  15. #15
    @Shadowmeld :

    If you change the wording to something else, then it means something else, so the 'next turn' question is moot.

  16. #16
    What I am trying to point out is that the word "next" is what supercedes the "unless otherwise stated clause".

  17. #17
    If an effect said the next character fielded is KOed, it would continue until a character was fielded, unless a different end point were given (such as until end of turn) if something said your opponent's next draw is reduced to 3 dice, that would imply that it would last through the turn.
    Next is the key word to this argument.

  18. #18
    @Shadowmeld :

    Blue-eyes global:
    Global: Pay [1 Bolt] and knock out one of your monsters to reduce the cost of the next die you buy by 2 energy.
    Ruling on Blue-eyes global:
    If used during your opponent's turn or during your Attack Step (or during your Main Step and you purchase no more dice this turn), it doesn't carry forward. The effect goes away at end of turn because it isn't a While Active effect.
    (emphasis all mine)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    If Enrage said next turn instead of next opportunity, would you believe that it lasted until next turn?

    By using the word opportunity instead of turn it allows the card to be used either offensively or defensively.

    I agree that Wiz Kids wording is unique on this card, but it is fairly clear in intent and with the above analysis it seems to comply with the "unless otherwise specified" clause of the rulebook.
    Does Enrage also then force your opponent to have an attack step? I'd assume that's the intent.

  20. #20
    Too clarify, My "next" examples were a bit to broad. There are a few effects that use next that have already been ruled as not extending past the end of the turn. However, I believe that the fact that we are talking about attacking it is quite obvious that "next opportunity" would have to carry over from turn to turn. There is only one opportunity per turn to attack, and using the phrase "next opportunity" is not only implying that there could be multiple opportunities, but also that this effect doesn't end until there is at least one of those.

    In the end though, this is yet another card that has wording that is simply out of line with standard diction for the core cards of the game. I wish WK would create a lexicon for their writers and force them to stick to it.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by digitallimit View Post
    Does Enrage also then force your opponent to have an attack step? I'd assume that's the intent.
    If your character was prevented from attacking before the attack step no attack step would be forced, but if not, yes a forced attack step, just like the a fore mentioned globals.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    @Shadowmeld :

    Blue-eyes global:


    Ruling on Blue-eyes global:


    (emphasis all mine)
    To be fair, we can't pretend WizKids has strict wording to be interpreted by the letter.

    The spirit of Enrage is to force an attack step with the targeted character attacking, whether or not you target your own or the opposing player's characters. If it wasn't, the effect text would be reversed, e.g.

    "Spin target character up one level. That character must attack this turn."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Too clarify, My "next" examples were a bit to broad. There are a few effects that use next that have already been ruled as not extending past the end of the turn. However, I believe that the fact that we are talking about attacking it is quite obvious that "next opportunity" would have to carry over from turn to turn. There is only one opportunity per turn to attack, and using the phrase "next opportunity" is not only implying that there could be multiple opportunities, but also that this effect doesn't end until there is at least one of those.
    The same argument could be made for Blue-Eyes global. And that has been ruled to not carry over.

    There is a precedent for such "next X" effects not carrying over to the next turn, so why ignore it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    In the end though, this is yet another card that has wording that is simply out of line with standard diction for the core cards of the game. I wish WK would create a lexicon for their writers and force them to stick to it.
    That we do agree on!

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by digitallimit View Post
    To be fair, we can't pretend WizKids has strict wording to be interpreted by the letter.
    Agreed.

    However, once a precedence is set by a ruling, should that precedence just be ignored?

    I don't think so.

    Otherwise we can just argue that cards work however we want them to.

    Quote Originally Posted by digitallimit View Post
    The spirit of Enrage is to force an attack step with the targeted character attacking, whether or not you target your own or the opposing player's characters.
    The problem with arguing 'spirit' or 'intent' is that it's pure opinion, unless you are the designer(s), or that 'spirit' or 'intent' as been explicitly expounded.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Agreed.

    However, once a precedence is set by a ruling, should that precedence just be ignored?

    I don't think so.

    Otherwise we can just argue that cards work however we want them to.



    The problem with arguing 'spirit' or 'intent' is that it's pure opinion, unless you are the designer(s), or that 'spirit' or 'intent' as been explicitly expounded.
    True, but we're trying to determine an expected ruling.

    Enrage, as you're interpreting it, becomes a spin-up action die with a drawback. That interpretation is too underpowered and flavorless, especially in the face of the more-flexible-and-without-drawback Focus Power.

    Enrage semantically implies a taunt. If we're rules-lawyering away the taunt aspect, we can agree that existing rulings from WizKids are insufficient to determine how this card "should" function and forces us to operate less obtusely, albeit more loosely.

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