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Thread: Black Widow – Killer Instinct

  1. #1

    Black Widow – Killer Instinct

    Black Widow – Killer Instinct

    "When fielded, spin one target opponent’s character down to level 1."

    So, this is not an optional ability. If there are two opposing characters, a sidekick and a level 2 character, is a fielded Black Widow forced to spin down the level 2 character, or can she target the sidekick to no effect?

    Thanks as always!

    Best
    Michael

  2. #2
    I strongly suspect that if there is a legal target, you have to choose it.

  3. #3
    It is a mandatory effect, but the only mandatory part is targeting an opponent's character. There's no requirement that it be a level 2+ character. As such, the sidekicks would be legal targets and you could avoid spinning down anything if you so chose.

  4. #4
    It is a mandatory effect and you have to do as much of the effect as you can.

    I'm pretty certain there is a ruling to this effect (though not in reference to this particular card).

  5. #5
    So if there are two opposing level 2 characters and you field two Killer Instincts, you'd be forced to spin both opposing level 2 characters down to level 1?

    How do people compete in tournaments for dice masters? Just hope the judges see the cards the same way they do?

  6. #6

  7. #7
    There's nothing in the card text that requires you spin down different characters, just that you spin down a character. If there's a level 3 Hulk out there that you don't want on a burst and something else you don't care about the level, I don't see any reason why you can't spin down the non-Hulk with both Widows, the second will just target and do nothing.

  8. #8
    I believe if you can do something then you have to do something, unless the card text includes something like "you may" (which Killer Instincts card text doesn't).

    My basis for this belief is the following ruling:

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...&t=1621&p=4872

    If for Inner Rage, you had 2 characters, you'd be forced to choose both in order to complete as much of the card's ability as possible since it doesn't say "Up to two..."
    (Emphasis mine)

    So, if your opponent has two characters, one on Level 3, the other on Level 1, and you field Killer Instinct, then you must target the Level 3 character.

  9. #9
    Yes. If it doesn't say you "may" do something, then you must do it, and you must do as much of it as possible. Another example: Green Arrow "Former Mayor" must deal his damage if there is an available character, and if he's the only one in the field, then he must deal it to himself.

    If there is an eligible target, the ability must fire.

  10. #10
    Reading up on "Spin", the rule book is pretty explicit on the fact that level 1 characters can't be spun down(beast=exception) and level 3 characters can't be spun up. The Rules forum is pretty specific about you not being able to target something with an effect if it's not a legal target for that effect (like spinning sidekicks). Finally, that version of Widow doesn't say that the action "may" be done so we must conclude that it "must" be done.

    Conclusion, you must spin the level 2 character instead.

  11. #11
    Inner Rage is not the best comp because it requires two characters be chosen simultaneously, not choose one character, resolve, then choose another character.

    Here is what gives me pause with Widow: if she were fielded and there were only level one characters in the field, you would still target a character to be spun down, the effect would just fizzle. Nothing in her ability specifies that it target a character that is above level one.

    I don't see any reason that you can't target a level one character (which satisfies the condition that you must target something), at which point her ability does as much as it is able to do, which ultimately is nothing.

    Is there a post in the rules forum that references not being able to target a sidekick with a spinning ability? I can't find one at a glance but I'm on a phone right now.

  12. #12
    That's what i thought @alleyviper , until I went and read the rules about spinning. You can't target a target that isn't eligible for an effect, and the rule book specifically says that level 1 characters can't be spun. Since BW wording says spin a character, not target a character and then spin it, the ability is all or nothing. If you can't spin the character you can't choose to target the character and not spin it. If there were only two sidekicks I agree the ability would fizzle, but it wouldn't first first target them, then fizzle. Instead it fizzles on ti's own right because there is no legal target.

  13. #13
    It comes down to a matter of semantics. There's basically two ways of interpreting it. Either:

    a.) level 1 characters are ineligible for effects that would spin them down
    b.) effects that would spin down a level 1 character have no effect on that character

    One would allow a level 1 character to be targeted by Killer Instinct, the other wouldn't. Obviously I'm leaning towards b.) at the moment.

    Let's pose this another way: my opponent has Bishop - Omega Squad in the field. I field Hawkeye - Longbow. Bishop cannot be damaged by bolt characters. Does that mean Hawkeye has to deal his damage to another character? He can't damage Bishop. Or can he target Bishop and simply deal no damage? I think if we're allowed to target Bishop with Hawkeye then we necessarily would be allowed to target level 1 characters with Widow.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    It comes down to a matter of semantics. There's basically two ways of interpreting it. Either:

    a.) level 1 characters are ineligible for effects that would spin them down
    b.) effects that would spin down a level 1 character have no effect on that character

    One would allow a level 1 character to be targeted by Killer Instinct, the other wouldn't. Obviously I'm leaning towards b.) at the moment.

    Let's pose this another way: my opponent has Bishop - Omega Squad in the field. I field Hawkeye - Longbow. Bishop cannot be damaged by bolt characters. Does that mean Hawkeye has to deal his damage to another character? He can't damage Bishop. Or can he target Bishop and simply deal no damage? I think if we're allowed to target Bishop with Hawkeye then we necessarily would be allowed to target level 1 characters with Widow.
    I think you are on to something here. Obviously spinning and taking damage are two different mechanics within the game, but the Bishop example makes an interesting point to this. The rules simply state that "Unless specified, a character cannot spin down from level 1 to a non-character face." Unless the distinction is made that a level 1 die is not a "legal target" for spinning effects, I think you target the die and nothing happens, much like the Bishop example.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    It comes down to a matter of semantics. There's basically two ways of interpreting it. Either:

    a.) level 1 characters are ineligible for effects that would spin them down
    b.) effects that would spin down a level 1 character have no effect on that character

    One would allow a level 1 character to be targeted by Killer Instinct, the other wouldn't. Obviously I'm leaning towards b.) at the moment.

    Let's pose this another way: my opponent has Bishop - Omega Squad in the field. I field Hawkeye - Longbow. Bishop cannot be damaged by bolt characters. Does that mean Hawkeye has to deal his damage to another character? He can't damage Bishop. Or can he target Bishop and simply deal no damage? I think if we're allowed to target Bishop with Hawkeye then we necessarily would be allowed to target level 1 characters with Widow.
    He must target a legal target - Bishop would not be a legal target.

  16. #16
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    Being an illegal target and being immune are not different things? I was under the impression they were quite different.

  17. #17
    He must target a legal target - Bishop would not be a legal target.
    Ah, but is he? Do we interpret Bishop's ability (verbatim - Bishop cannot be damaged by characters) as:

    a.) Damage applied to Bishop from a bolt character source is negated
    or
    b.) Damage from bolt characters cannot be applied to Bishop in the first place

    His ability is not "Bishop may not be the target of a character's ability" after all.


    e: to JT's point, since it's nice and succinct, and to bring it back around to spinning level 1 characters, are level 1 characters illegal targets for spinning or immune to spinning? Assuming, of course, those are different things.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    He must target a legal target - Bishop would not be a legal target.
    Treading in to dangerous waters here. Can I not block a bolt attacker with Bishop since he can't be a legal target of a bolt attacker's damage? I think immunity is the distinction here. I can't recall any character text that would specify that a die cannot specifically be spun down or up, which would imply immunity to spinning as in Bishop's immunity to bolt damage. I think we (well, WizKids really) need to decide whether the text in the rules is implying that level 1 characters are immune to spinning down or cannot be the target of spinning down.

  19. #19
    When fielded, Hawkeye deals his attack value in damage to a target opposing character.
    Hawkeye must deal damage when fielded - if the intended target cannot take damage, Hawkeye cannot fulfill that requirement so he either aims for a different target in order to activate the check, or fails to trigger the ability. No target, no ability triggers. I don't think it goes too deeply when checking trigger conditions.

    Either way, unless specified on the card, a lvl 1 character cannot be spun down a lvl - it is already at it's lowest possible lvl. If it can't be spun down, it cannot be targeted for an effect that requires the spin-down trigger.

  20. #20
    In the case of BW, I think that whether or not a target is eligible is irrelevant...

    As Scott pointed out, you must do as much as possible. If you CAN spin something down, then you MUST spin something down.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jwalk40 View Post
    Treading in to dangerous waters here. Can I not block a bolt attacker with Bishop since he can't be a legal target of a bolt attacker's damage? I think immunity is the distinction here. I can't recall any character text that would specify that a die cannot specifically be spun down or up, which would imply immunity to spinning as in Bishop's immunity to bolt damage. I think we (well, WizKids really) need to decide whether the text in the rules is implying that level 1 characters are immune to spinning down or cannot be the target of spinning down.
    Combat damage and ability damage are 2 different things though. Sure you can assign him to block, and the combat damage is nullified because of his ability. If he's not being targeted by an ability/action, there's nothing that prevents him from being a legal blocker.

    In the end, can't overrides must - if a character can't be spun down, it can't be the target of an ability that requires it.

  22. #22
    regarding Bishop discussion, are these cards treated the same?


  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    regarding Bishop discussion, are these cards treated the same?

    Superman's ability only works in the attack step, Atom's effect is active at all times when he's in the field.

    IOW - you can damage Superman with 'when fielded' abilities and direct damage during the main step. Atom's ability is closer to Bishop's as it's a 'while active' ability.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    Superman's ability only works in the attack step, Atom's effect is active at all times when he's in the field.

    IOW - you can damage Superman with 'when fielded' abilities and direct damage during the main step. Atom's ability is closer to Bishop's as it's a 'while active' ability.
    But CAN YOU target Superman with magic missile GLOBAL during attack step...?

    This is 2 cards in the same set, with similar effects and different wording.
    cannot be damaged, is not the same as takes no damage.

    I believe that in attack step, during "assign damage", you do not even assign damage to Superman. But with The Atom, you can and do assign 0 damage, ( this would not trigger any when damaged effects)

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    Hawkeye must deal damage when fielded - if the intended target cannot take damage, Hawkeye cannot fulfill that requirement so he either aims for a different target in order to activate the check, or fails to trigger the ability. No target, no ability triggers. I don't think it goes too deeply when checking trigger conditions.

    Either way, unless specified on the card, a lvl 1 character cannot be spun down a lvl - it is already at it's lowest possible lvl. If it can't be spun down, it cannot be targeted for an effect that requires the spin-down trigger.
    Here's the question, though: does Bishop's ability work such that damage cannot be applied to him in the first place, or is it applied and then reduced to 0? It's not clear, and obviously there are opinions on both sides. Naturally, because this is Wizkids, it's muddied by the existence of other characters such as Iron Man - Billionaire (Iron Man takes no damage from non- characters). Is this an equivalent ability to Omega Squad or are they functionally different?

    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    But CAN YOU target Superman with magic missile GLOBAL during attack step...?
    Or this? It could be very easy to interpret "cannot be damaged" and "take no damage" as very different things. I can see a world where Bishop could not even be a legal target for Hawkeye but Iron Man or a lower level Atom are legal targets, who would simply take 0 damage.

    Clarifying whether Bishop/Superman are equivalent abilities to Iron Man/Atom could help dictate whether level 1 characters can be targeted by spinning abilities or not.

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