Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Deadman - Possessive Talents

  1. #1

    Deadman - Possessive Talents

    I'm sure it's a dumb question but...Deadman - Possessive Talents ("When fielded, choose a character") - do you have to choose a character currently in the field? Or can you pre-emptively choose any of your opponent's characters?
    I thought maybe the syntax was different...would they say "choose an opponent's character in the field" if you were limited to choosing characters already fielded?

  2. #2
    It's not clear, and opinion is divided.

    Personally I think it is a Loki/Joker style ability that allows you to stop all dice from a character (whether fielded when named or not) from attacking or blocking whilst he remains in the field.

    For reference:

  3. #3


    choose a character, means choose a character die. it would say card if it meant card.

    hmmm

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    choose a character, means choose a character die. it would say card if it meant card.
    I'm not so certain. Wizkids hasn't been consistent when writing card text and has used character to refer to both a fielded dice and a character represented by a card. With the rule of thumb being to go with a literal, straight-forward reading when there's nothing else, it reads as if any character on an opponent's team can be affected not just those that are fielded.

  5. #5
    Do you have an example of when they listed just "character" and meant "character card", @Crestfallen ?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by slimo View Post
    I'm sure it's a dumb question but...Deadman - Possessive Talents ("When fielded, choose a character") - do you have to choose a character currently in the field? Or can you pre-emptively choose any of your opponent's characters?
    I thought maybe the syntax was different...would they say "choose an opponent's character in the field" if you were limited to choosing characters already fielded?
    What it is basically is a variation on:


    Which if you combo'd both Lex and Deadman together equals:



    You don't have to pick a character in the field with Deadman since it doesn't state so. Deadman's ability stops a character from attacking and blocking forcing your opponent to try to buy and use it only for ramp.

  7. #7
    Both of these examples target character card. Deadman does not. There is a meta rule that you cannot target things not in the field unless it specifically states so on a card. As such, Dead man targets a single fielded die.

  8. #8
    If we read Deadman as only affecting die, then couldn't you also read it to stop ANY of your opponent's characters from ever attacking or blocking?

    Step 1 - Field your first Deadman die, and name an opponent's die (Beast #1 for example)
    Step 2 - Field a second Deadman, and name Pyro die #1
    Step 3 - KO your own Deadman (or send him to used somehow), re-field him, name another die. Deadman die #1 is still in the field and thus Deadman is still active. So, now Beast #1, Pyro #1, and the Beast die #2 that you just named cannot attack or block.
    Step 4 - Keep repeating this making sure to keep at least one Deadman die in the field to fulfill the "While Deadman is Active" requirement. As long as Deadman never goes un-active, then every die you have named before cannot attack or block.

    The "Cancelling All Previous Choices" text is not on this card, which makes it ripe for abuse.

  9. #9
    I strongly suspect that this card will get errata'd.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Do you have an example of when they listed just "character" and meant "character card", @Crestfallen ?
    Here's what I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    Wizkids hasn't been consistent when writing card text and has used character to refer to both a fielded dice and a character represented by a card.
    What I meant is that Wizkids hasn't used character to refer exclusively to fielded character dice. In fact, they use character in at least three different ways. This is from the first two pages of the JL rulebook describing the components and cards:

    “16 Character Dice (2 each of 8 types)”
    “24 Character Cards (3 versions each for 8 characters; Sidekicks have no cards)”
    “Cards and their associated dice come in two types: characters and actions
    In these excerpts, character is used to refer to (1) character dice, (2) character cards, and (3) the fictional characters making up the team and represented by the cards and dice (hence: “3 versions each for 8 characters”). @slimo is asking whether Deadman: Possessive Talents refers specifically to fielded character dice or any character that’s part of the opponent’s team. There isn't a clear cut answer.

    Some cards explicitly mention opposing or target characters (i.e., fielded character dice):



    Other cards use only character and are implicitly referring to fielded character dice:



    There are a few cards that specifically refer to character cards:



    And finally, several cards use character to refer to the characters making up a player's team and/or character dice that may or may not be currently in the field:




    These seven cards lend support to the reading that Deadman: Possessive Talents can be used against any of the opponent's characters, both fielded and unfielded. Furthermore, the common Deadman card explicitly limits its ability to an opposing character. Compare with the card in question:



    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    There is a meta rule that you cannot target things not in the field unless it specifically states so on a card. As such, Dead man targets a single fielded die.
    In the end, perhaps the JL rulebook can resolve this (p. 20):

    "Card text always supersedes basic rule text."
    “Unless otherwise stated, game effects can only target character dice that are in the field.”
    Yet, it doesn’t seem so simple. Deadman: Possessive Talents doesn't state that its ability can be used against unfielded characters but neither do Constantine: Hell Blazer and Aquaman: Orin, among others shown above. Are we to assume that the abilities of these cards can only affect a character for which dice are currently fielded?

    As an aside, if we grant that the Deadman ability can only be used against opposing (fielded) character dice, how do we know that it applies only to a single character die and not all instances (every dice) of the chosen character?
    Last edited by Crestfallen; 06-01-2015 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Grammar

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OddballNarwhal View Post
    Step 4 - Keep repeating this making sure to keep at least one Deadman die in the field to fulfill the "While Deadman is Active" requirement. As long as Deadman never goes un-active, then every die you have named before cannot attack or block.
    This is an interesting hypothetical but in order to play out as described the reading of the card would be inconsistent.

    Steps 1 and 2 assume that the card text applies to an individual Deadman die that, when fielded, activates the ability.

    Steps 3 and 4 change the reading so that it assumes the card text remains active when any Deadman die (the character itself) remains in the field and not the specific die that activated the ability.

  12. #12
    I totally am with you on the inconsistency.

    However, every example you give has specific constraints or defined wording.
    Walking through them one at a time:
    Your first batch of cards is pretty obviously targeting character dice.
    Your second batch is definatley more inferred, but the rulebook quotes you listed define the grounds for those implications.
    Lex and Joker SPECIFICALLY say character card, and thus affect every die related to that card.
    Purchase and fielding discounts still only refer to dice, and while some of those are affiliation wide discounts, they still only make each DIE you buy cheaper to buy. That Booster Gold is a good example if this. He does not make all Katanas you choose to buy in a turn cheaper, but "a" Katana die cheaper.
    Orin affects a DIE from your used pile, not all dice of a particular card.
    Lastly, Constantine "names" a character on both his iterations. This is a way WK has decided to handle situations where you affect all dice of a particular card, but interact with those dice on an individual basis. For example, Hellblazer's effect doesn't trigger unless a named die does a specific thing (being fielded), but if it does trigger, all dice sharing that name are affected.

    Hope this clears up some of your "character" issues. Remember, the standard rule is, if it says character it is talking about a single, active die, unless context clues specify otherwise.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    This is an interesting hypothetical but in order to play out as described the reading of the card would be inconsistent.

    Steps 1 and 2 assume that the card text applies to an individual Deadman die that, when fielded, activates the ability.

    Steps 3 and 4 change the reading so that it assumes the card text remains active when any Deadman die (the character itself) remains in the field and not the specific die that activated the ability.
    And this is exactly my point.

    When a character is "active", that means of course that at least 1 die is active. However, if it is "1 Deadman die holds 1 Opponent's Die" and not "While Deadman is active, one opponent character's dice cannot attack or block", then it doesn't match from beginning to end of card, and this abuse of Deadman can take place.

  14. #14
    Following the thought of targeting a specific character in general would cause to make all die of one villain character block an attacking character. In both texts you choose an opposing character (in Wonder Woman's case specifically a villain.)

  15. #15
    The WizKids' ruling on Deadman Possessive Talents really should be done before next weekend at Worlds. If he shuts down a character in general from attacking or blocking instead of just a single die he might get a home on some teams just to get around those pesky Polymorphic Canadians.

  16. #16
    Maybe Deadman is intended to "capture" a die, but not affect the die's ability to trigger card text. There is no keyword for this currently in any set. If you were to look at the purchase cost of Possessive Talents vs. Boston Brand, it is only a difference of 1 energy. Obviously a capture of a die is a stronger ability vs. the prohibiting a die from attacking or blocking, hence the increased cost for the capture ability. If it were to prohibit any copy of that die from attacking or blocking it would seem the purchase cost would be equal to, if not greater than Boston Brand.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by alphans View Post
    The WizKids' ruling on Deadman Possessive Talents really should be done before next weekend at Worlds. If he shuts down a character in general from attacking or blocking instead of just a single die he might get a home on some teams just to get around those pesky Polymorphic Canadians.
    It sure would make it a lot easier for those building their teams to see these rulings ahead of time. I'd feel bad for someone trying to innovate something new based on their interpretation of a card's text get burned at the event due to a ruling.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jwalk40 View Post
    If you were to look at the purchase cost of Possessive Talents vs. Boston Brand, it is only a difference of 1 energy. Obviously a capture of a die is a stronger ability vs. the prohibiting a die from attacking or blocking, hence the increased cost for the capture ability. If it were to prohibit any copy of that die from attacking or blocking it would seem the purchase cost would be equal to, if not greater than Boston Brand.
    Intent of purchase cost to ability is not something that I would stand on with WizKids. *cough* *cough*

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    I totally am with you on the inconsistency. However, every example you give has specific constraints or defined wording.
    I understand this. Those groups of cards demonstrate that character is used in different ways, some of which have limiters such as opposing, target, etc. However, some do not. Therefore, my argument is that, since some instances of the word character are used to refer to an unfielded character die (e.g., Aquaman: Orin), one can't necessarily assume that a fielded character die is what is meant by Deadman: Possessive Talents' card text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Purchase and fielding discounts still only refer to dice, and while some of those are affiliation wide discounts, they still only make each DIE you buy cheaper to buy. That Booster Gold is a good example if this. He does not make all Katanas you choose to buy in a turn cheaper, but "a" Katana die cheaper.
    This interprets Booster Gold's card text as if it's referring to a single, one-time purchase of a die and not all dice of one selected character ("reduce the cost of a non-Villain character by 1"). Since this distinction isn't specified, why would we draw this conclusion? In other words, why is this a standard rule: "if it says character it is talking about a single, active die, unless context clues specify otherwise." Maybe there's a Wizkids ruling I've overlooked somewhere.

    In any case, the issue of whether a particular instance of character refers to all of a character's dice or a single character die is related but not the question initially posed by @slimo . He essentially asked if Deadman: Possessive Talents' ability is restricted to a fielded character or if it can be applied to an unfielded character.

    The third group of seven cards I showed above are specific cases where a card's text can affect a character (or perhaps, character die and/or dice) that are not in the field. If Deadman's ability is restricted to a single fielded character die, despite this limitation not being spelled out, how can any of these seven cards' abilities apply to character dice which are unfielded?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by OddballNarwhal View Post
    And this is exactly my point.
    Given that Deadman's ability is activated when fielded and terminated when no longer active, it would seem to fall under the same restrictions as active effects which take "place when one or more of that card’s dice are in the field" (p. 26). If the case, additionally fielded Deadman dice do not accrue and steps 2-4 of your hypothetical could not occur.

    Since it isn't specified that another fielded Deadman cancels all previous choices, a literal reading would suggest that the initial selection remains in effect until no Deadman dice are active (in the field).

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    In any case, the issue of whether a particular instance of character refers to all of a character's dice or a single character die is related but not the question initially posed by @slimo . He essentially asked if Deadman: Possessive Talents' ability is restricted to a fielded character or if it can be applied to an unfielded character.

    The third group of seven cards I showed above are specific cases where a card's text can affect a character (or perhaps, character die and/or dice) that are not in the field. If Deadman's ability is restricted to a single fielded character die, despite this limitation not being spelled out, how can any of these seven cards' abilities apply to character dice which are unfielded?
    The answer to this is one you've already cited:

    In the end, perhaps the JL rulebook can resolve this (p. 20):

    "Card text always supersedes basic rule text."
    Unless otherwise stated, game effects can only target character dice that are in the field.”
    As for those 7 examples you listed before, each of them references a situation where the character is IMPLIED to be not in the field.
    1-3) Aquaman, Superman and Booster Gold:Buying, purchasing, characters are implicitly not in the field because you buy them from the card.
    4) Wonder Woman: Characters you haven't paid the fielding cost for are also not yet in the field.
    5) Orin says you're moving a character from A to B. thus he choses a character in A, not in the field.
    6-7) Constantine has you name a character and if that character comes from location A, and you (or your opponent) perform action B on that character, then Effect C applies. (drawn from bag or fielded from Reservel pool, etc.)

    As you can see, there are obvious or implicit locations and circumstances around these mentions of character. Deadman has no other implications. If anything he IMPLIES that it's a fielded character, because only fielded characters can attack or block. Most importantly though there is no "Unless otherwise stated" section allowing him to target anything not in the field. He's not naming. He's not choosing a card, he's picking one "character" (die) and locking down it's combat capability.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by alphans View Post
    In both texts you choose an opposing character (in Wonder Woman's case specifically a villain.)
    That's fair.

    This whole discussion notwithstanding, I've never attempted to use Deadman against an unfielded character (which is what the OP is asking about) but did assume that it affected every field die of the chosen character.

  23. #23
    I think this card should be banned until WK gives us a ruling. If we did that for every card with text, however, we would have some pretty drab and limited teams.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    As for those 7 examples you listed before, each of them references a situation where the character is IMPLIED to be not in the field.
    True. But, an argument could be made that the absence of a stated restriction on Deadman: Possessive Talents, compared with the one on Deadman: Boston Brand, implies that the ability is not restricted to an opposing/fielded character die.

  25. #25
    You could make a similar argument for the disparities in the different Psylocke abilities and of course WK has ruled that not to be the case.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •