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Thread: triggered wording

  1. #1

    triggered wording

    is there a difference between:

    While active, when a SK is KO'd, gain 2 life

    While active, whenever a SK is KO'd, gain 2 life

    While active, if a SK is KO'd, gain 2 life


    in regards to board clears?
    let's say I have 2 SKs fielded...
    Last edited by SarkhanMad; 06-02-2015 at 02:56 PM.

  2. #2

  3. #3

  4. #4
    The interesting part of that WK ruling is that if multiple sidekicks are KO'd by a single effect, you gain only 1 life. Whereas if sidekicks are KO'd individually in a turn, the BAC Causalities global provides 1 life each time..



    Why isn't it possible to pay the energy multiple times and gain, say 3 lives, when a SK is KO'd?

  5. #5
    There's a good discussion on that exact topic on BGG right now. It definitely needs a firm ruling on the Rules Forum, but the general consensus is that Casualties global doesn't say "gain 1 additional life", so it doesn't stack. No matter how many times you pay for it, it's always a set number (1).

  6. #6
    The semantic hashing sometimes required to apply card abilities correctly is crazy.

    I assume that you cannot pay the energy and gain 1 life for a SK KO'd earlier in the turn. This came up in one game where a player fielded Captain America: Star-Spangled Avenger, KO'd four SKs, and then wanted to pay the Casualties global cost to gain an additional four lives. His argument was based on the term whenever which I took to mean "each time" after the global is paid.

    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    ... Casualties global doesn't say "gain 1 additional life", so it doesn't stack. No matter how many times you pay for it, it's always a set number (1).
    Using the same logic, since PXG doesn't say "Move up to 2 additional SK dice...", couldn't you make a case that it shouldn't stack? The wording of the two globals ("Pay [energy]") doesn't imply that it can only be paid once per turn.

    Doesn't it seem more likely that the global is simply "gain 1 life" because a 1 life gain isn't already happening? If you look at the text for Causalities' double-burst basic action, it reads, "KO an additional SK" because one SK is already being KO'd by the ability. Hence, based on how Wizkids employs additional on the card in question, it would be nonsensical, in the context of the global, to use additional even if the global was considered stackable.
    Last edited by Crestfallen; 06-03-2015 at 12:38 PM. Reason: Words.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    is there a difference between:

    While active, when a SK is KO'd, gain 2 life

    While active, whenever a SK is KO'd, gain 2 life

    While active, if a SK is KO'd, gain 2 life

    in regards to board clears?
    let's say I have 2 SKs fielded...
    If you only have 2 SKs fielded, it'd seem that your opponent could only gain 2 life if both were KO's simultaneously.

    You may not be interested but I think the results could be different if you had 4 SKs fielded and 2 were KO'd simultaneously in the main step and 2 in the attack step. The first and third statements read as if they may only trigger once. The "whenever" of the second statement could be read as triggering each time a SK is KO'd.
    Last edited by Crestfallen; 06-03-2015 at 12:47 PM.

  8. #8
    Here is the thread I was referring to:

    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/137...et-taken-today

    Again, it really needs a ruling by Wizkids.

  9. #9
    Thanks, @pk2317 . I added my thoughts there as well.

  10. #10
    Here is a link to a ruling asking if you can trigger a life gaining effect multiple times.
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=1620

    So you can only pay for casualties global once. The effect should last until end of turn. Otherwise it would say "the next time a sidekick would be KOed."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by alphans View Post
    Here is a link to a ruling asking if you can trigger a life gaining effect multiple times.
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=1620

    So you can only pay for casualties global once. The effect should last until end of turn. Otherwise it would say "the next time a sidekick would be KOed."
    This ruling isn't about how many times you can use a life gain global. Rather, it's about how many times you can use a global that has a prerequisite trigger (i.e., a specific game effect has to happen first before you can use it). In that case, only once.

    In contrast, the Casualties global does not have a prerequisite trigger. It can be purchased at any time. The life gain only happens when a SK or group of SKs are subsequently KO'd.

  12. #12
    @Crestfallen I was on my phone. In the bathroom. At work. Trying to hurry up and find something when I posted that.

    Still on the side that it will be ruled as an effect that can only be applied once even tho one of the few ways I can see getting a massive life swing is to field A LOT with Johnny Storm on your field. There are not too many ways to knock out sidekicks with multiple and economic actions/abilities.

    They could also errata it to be a global you can activate only once a turn. This would still allow you to use it twice if your opponent is playing it.

  13. #13
    You can pay for it as many times as you like.

    But you will still only gain 1 life each time one or more sidekicks are KO'd by a singular effect.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    You can pay for it as many times as you like.

    But you will still only gain 1 life each time one or more sidekicks are KO'd by a singular effect.
    Why is that?

  15. #15
    Because the thing you are paying for is "gain 1 life whenever an opposing SK is KO'd this turn".

    It's like if you pay to "force an opposing character to attack this turn" - if you pay the cost twice you don't double the effect - they attack one and once only.

    If it were, "Gain +1 life whenever an opposing SK is KO'd this turn", then it paying multiple times would give you multiple life per instance of SK KOage.

    All in my opinion, of course.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    It's like if you pay to "force an opposing character to attack this turn" - if you pay the cost twice you don't double the effect - they attack one and once only. If it were, "Gain +1 life whenever an opposing SK is KO'd this turn", then it paying multiple times would give you multiple life per instance of SK KOage.
    You may be right. My one quibble with the comparison is that it's logically impossible (given the rules of the game) to force a character to attack more than once a turn. A player can gain more than one life.

    PXG reads, "Pay mask. Move up to 2 Sidekick dice from your used pile to your prep area." Assuming the Causalities global cannot be stacked, you can only gain 1 life no matter how many masks are paid, how to we justify the standard reading of PXG which assumes it can be purchases more than once? When paying twice for PXG, you aren't increasing the total of the dice affected by the ability from 2 to 4, you're paying for two uses of the ability (which allow you to move up to 2 SKs each).

    The Relentless global reads, "Pay mask. Target character cannot block." You can't pay multiple times and make the same die unable to block multiple times but you can pay multiple times and apply the effect to multiple different dice. If paying twice for Relentless global, you aren't doubling the inability to block for one dice, you're paying for two uses of the ability and applying them to two different dice.

    Given these cases, I can't see how Causalities can only be purchased once. In order to interpret consistently, it seems that paying for the global multiple times should be seen as purchasing multiple concurrent uses of the ability, all of which allow the purchaser to gain 1 life per SK/SK group KO'd.
    Last edited by Crestfallen; 06-05-2015 at 11:16 AM. Reason: More thoughts.

  17. #17


    did anybody see David Walsh use this more than once per turn? answer our question?

    can you pay 2 to prevent 2 damage?

  18. #18
    Yes you can. And I see where you're going with this. I think the difference here is that you are actually targeting the damage points separately.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Yes you can. And I see where you're going with this. I think the difference here is that you are actually targeting the damage points separately.
    I don't see the logic behind allowing the Vibranium Shield global to be paid multiple times while restricting Causalities to one purchase. See my response to @Scorpion0x17 above for more of my argument.

    When paying three shield energy for the Vibranium Shield global, you are not increasing the amount of damage the ability allows you to prevent from 1 to 3. Rather, you are purchasing three uses of the ability which allow you to prevent 1 damage each.

    This relates to Causalities in that when paying for the global multiple times, you are not increasing the amount of life the ability allows you to gain but, instead, paying for multiple uses of the ability (each of which allow you to gain 1 life per SK/SK group KO'd). Multiple purchases of Causalities global should be interpreted as paying for multiple instances of this global to be in effect.
    Last edited by Crestfallen; 06-05-2015 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Poor grammar.

  20. #20
    Again, the difference is you are targeting the damage points separately. If a target is taking 3 damage you pay a shield to redirect 1 point (#1) then a shield to redirect 1 point (#2) then a shield to redirect 1 point (#3).

    Since the life you gain from casualties isn't a redirect you are not targeting the life to be gained, neither are you targeting a sidekick to gain life from dying.
    If the casualties global said pay 1 gain 1 life when target sidekick dies this turn. You could use it to gain life when multiple die simultaneously. If it said pay 1 to gain 1 life for each opposing sidekick that dies this turn. You could again gain multiples. Instead it says (paraphrasing for clarity) pay 1 to gain life each time any number of opposing sidekick dice dies this turn. You gain 1 life for each horrific tragedy the villains cause. You don't gain more life just because one tragedy was more severe than the other.

  21. #21
    Casualties is a constant effect - you pay for it once, it goes into effect until the effect ends as specified. If you pay for it again, the new effect replace the old effect.

    Vibranium Shield's global is resolved instantly, so you can pay for the effect to resolve multiple times as it does not over-ride itself.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    Casualties is a constant effect - you pay for it once, it goes into effect until the effect ends as specified. If you pay for it again, the new effect replace the old effect.

    Vibranium Shield's global is resolved instantly, so you can pay for the effect to resolve multiple times as it does not over-ride itself.
    Interesting. You seem to be defining the Casualties global in the same sense as active character effects, defined as "an effect that takes place when one or more of that cardís dice are in the field" (JL p. 26). What's your rationale for this interpretation? Searching through the JL rule book and the WizKids rules forum, nothing comes up suggesting a global with what you've called a "constant" ability can only be purchased once or that an additional purchase negates the first.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Again, the difference is you are targeting the damage points separately. If a target is taking 3 damage you pay a shield to redirect 1 point (#1) then a shield to redirect 1 point (#2) then a shield to redirect 1 point (#3).

    Since the life you gain from casualties isn't a redirect you are not targeting the life to be gained, neither are you targeting a sidekick to gain life from dying.
    If the casualties global said pay 1 gain 1 life when target sidekick dies this turn. You could use it to gain life when multiple die simultaneously. If it said pay 1 to gain 1 life for each opposing sidekick that dies this turn. You could again gain multiples. Instead it says (paraphrasing for clarity) pay 1 to gain life each time any number of opposing sidekick dice dies this turn. You gain 1 life for each horrific tragedy the villains cause. You don't gain more life just because one tragedy was more severe than the other.
    I'm not entirely following your reasoning but you seem to be saying that since the Casualties global does not require a target SK (and a redirect to another target?), the energy cost for the Casualties global cannot be paid and applied multiple times. Your argument is particularly confusing because you use the Vibranium Shield global as support but that ability states nothing about targeting a die or redirecting damage. It simply reads, "Pay [energy] to prevent 1 damage to a character or player."

    However, even if the Vibranium Shield global did require that a target be identified, I don't see how it follows that the Casualties global must therefore be limited to one use because it doesn't require a target. Some globals are broad and unspecific (with triggers such as when, any, etc). Others are specific, requiring a character be chosen or a target identified. The specificity of the conditions for a global ability to be triggered do not, in themselves, indicate how many times a global ability and be purchased and applied.

    My process for interpreting card text in the absence of a clear rule or specific ruling by Wizkids is to (1) go with the literal, straightforward reading of the text, and (2) interpret and apply similar card text consistently. I'm going to restate portions of my argument from above since the points haven't been addressed thus far. The entire argument is premised upon logical inference and literal and consistent interpretation of the language used.

    The language of the four cards below is similar. With the exception of Relentless, none of the abilities require a target. They all specify an energy payment for a global ability. None state a limit or imply that they can only be used once or that an additional usage within the same turn negates the previous choice. If you're going to place a once-per-turn limit onto the Casualties global, in order to be consistent, it seems you'd have to do the same for the other three globals.





    A target SK isn't required for PXG and no one argues that the ability can only be used once per turn. If you pay two masks to use PXG twice, you are not increasing the total of the dice affected by the ability from 2 to 4, rather, you're paying for two uses of the ability (which allow you to move up to 2 SKs for each purchase).

    Likewise, a target isn't required for the Vibranium Shield global. When paying three energy for this global, you are not increasing the amount of damage the ability allows you to prevent from 1 to 3. Rather, you are purchasing three uses of the ability which allow you to prevent 1 damage each.

    The Relentless global does require a target but this has nothing to do with how many times the ability can be purchased and used each turn. Specificity is required because the ability itself affects one identified die. When paying twice for Relentless, you aren't doubling a target die's inability to block, you're paying for two uses of the ability and applying apply it to two identified dice.

    Again, without a clear rule or specific ruling, I think the Causalities global must be interpreted similarly in order to remain logically consistent and not impose limitations onto the card text that aren't stated. From reading the card and taking into account the official rules, errata, and rulings, there is no reason I can find to assume that the Causalities global can only be purchased and go into effect once per turn. Just like PXG and Vibranium Shield a simple one energy payment is required and no targets are identified.

    So, using the same logic applied to interpreting the other three globals, if you were to pay two energy to use the Causalities global twice, you would not be increasing the amount of life the ability allows you to gain from 1 to 2. Rather, you would be paying for two uses of the ability (each of which allow you to gain 1 life per SK/SK group KO'd). The fact that the Causalities global has a prerequisite trigger (KO'd SK/SKs) after the energy payment, speaks nothing to how many times it may be purchased and used per turn. As far as I can tell, such an argument equates the global ability with that of a fielded character's "While active" ability. I see no precedent for this interpretation.

    As an aside, some globals in the JL set are specifically limited to once usage per turn:



    It seems that the Causalities global is the only global ability from all sets and OPs that goes into affect after payment and can be triggered multiple times (via SK's being KO at different times in the turn).

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    It seems that the Causalities global is the only global ability from all sets and OPs that goes into affect after payment and can be triggered multiple times (via SK's being KO at different times in the turn).
    This right here. Because of this, I think it definitely needs a ruling. Based on a strict reading of the text, I can absolutely see where you are coming from and if I were a tournament judge, I would probably rule the same way. However, I also see that the intent was likely for this to only be useable once per turn. Otherwise - pay 3 energy for Casualties 3 times. Pay 3 more energy to ping them (separately). Gain 9 life for 6 energy.

    I can also see the similarity to this card:


    Even if you pay to activate this Global 3 times, I don't think anyone would rule that now the attacker has to pay 1 life 3 times (3 life) in order to attack.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    I can also see the similarity to this card:

    Even if you pay to activate this Global 3 times, I don't think anyone would rule that now the attacker has to pay 1 life 3 times (3 life) in order to attack.
    You're right, likely no one would claim that one character die could be targeted by the Kitty Pryde global three times. However, since this global is virtually identical in wording to the Relentless global, except the target is unable to attack as opposed to block, there's nothing limiting how many times it can be purchased and applied to different target characters.

    In other words, just as you can use the Relentless global to prevent multiple targets from blocking, you can use the Kitty Pryde global to prevent multiple targets from attacking.



    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    I also see that the intent was likely for this to only be useable once per turn. Otherwise - pay 3 energy for Casualties 3 times. Pay 3 more energy to ping them (separately). Gain 9 life for 6 energy.
    If the intent was to limit the usage of the Casualties global to once per turn, it's not conveyed in the ability text or consistent with other globals. There are other big point swings in the game and there's already a limit prohibiting gaining more than your starting total of 20.

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