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Thread: Black Manta: David

  1. #1

    Black Manta: David

    A level 3 Black Manta: David was forced to attack by a level 2 Toad: Tongue Lashing. Since Toad had a burst, Black Manta took two damage when he attacked. Does Black Manta's ability trigger immediately, dealing 1 damage to the opponent before blockers are assigned?

    If so, would Black Manta's ability trigger again if he was blocked but not KO'd?


  2. #2
    I would say yes. It's two separate instances of damage, and it doesn't specify on Black Manta that it must be the first time he takes damage in the attack step.

  3. #3
    Based purely on the wording, I agree with @Dave .

    However, my gut feeling is that the intention is that this is meant to be a 'Check at the end of the attack step if Black Manta took damage during it and wasn't KO'd. If so, deal 1 damage to an opponent' style ability.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Based purely on the wording, I agree with @Dave .

    However, my gut feeling is that the intention is that this is meant to be a 'Check at the end of the attack step if Black Manta took damage during it and wasn't KO'd. If so, deal 1 damage to an opponent' style ability.
    If Toad had forced a character with a defense of two or less to attack, would the damage be resolved immediately and the die KO'd before blockers were assigned?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    If Toad had forced a character with a defense of two or less to attack, would the damage be resolved immediately and the die KO'd before blockers were assigned?
    Yes.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Based purely on the wording, I agree with @Dave .

    However, my gut feeling is that the intention is that this is meant to be a 'Check at the end of the attack step if Black Manta took damage during it and wasn't KO'd. If so, deal 1 damage to an opponent' style ability.

    I can see that argument. Note that Nova specifies "Whenever Nova takes damage" during the attack step rather than the "If" that Manta has.


  7. #7
    Pre-empting the question I expect to be asked:

    Angel Avenging Angel ruling:
    The ability checks at the end of combat.
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...&t=1622&p=3835


  8. #8
    So, @Scorpion0x17 , you're suggesting the Toad's burst damage would resolve immediately against a 2D character but for Black Manta not until after blockers are assigned, globals played, etc.?

  9. #9
    There it is. So the question becomes intent - is this simply a version of Angel's ability that works on both offense and defense, or is the intent closer to Nova? Leaning now towards Angel, but "damage" is the trigger here rather than "blocked but not KO'd" - There are multiple times in the attack step when David could be damaged without being knocked out.

    @Crestfallen - Manta takes damage immediately, the question becomes how does he trigger.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    So, @Scorpion0x17 , you're suggesting the Toad's burst damage would resolve immediately against a 2D character but for Black Manta not until after blockers are assigned, globals played, etc.?
    No...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    @Crestfallen - Manta takes damage immediately, the question becomes how does he trigger.
    ...this ^^^.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    There it is. So the question becomes intent - is this simply a version of Angel's ability that works on both offense and defense, or is the intent closer to Nova? Leaning now towards Angel, but "damage" is the trigger here rather than "blocked but not KO'd" - There are multiple times in the attack step when David could be damaged without being knocked out.
    Yeah, that's my feeling. But it is just a feeling based on the Angel ruling.

    A straight reading of the ability text, however, could suggest he works more like Nova.

  12. #12
    Is it fair to assume this ability check language originates from MTG? I never came across this type thing just reading the rules. How exactly is this check supposed to work generally and in this case with Black Manta?

  13. #13
    This is a prototypical case of the WizKids If/When doctrine. "If x happens in y window, resolve z at end of window."

    Instead of "When x happens in y window, resolve z immediately."

  14. #14
    We're probably overthinking it, as tends to happen. If it's like Nova, it's any time he takes a new source of damage in the attack step that doesn't KO him. If it's like Angel, it's at the end of the attack step, looking to see - did he take damage, and is he still there.

    I lean Nova-similar at present because with Angel there is only one time that you can check it based on what the ability says. Conversely, there are multiple times this could occur with Manta.

    All of that said - if it's the Nova way then we have essentially the same card as Nova for just two cost and I can't believe that - unbalanced even for a pushed card. So then I say it's checked at the end of the attack step.

  15. #15
    It is just the nature of the game, @Crestfallen .

    The rule book will only get you so far.

    The FAQ and rulings will often get you further.

    But, sometimes, you have to piece together numerous clues, often from seemingly unrelated places, to figure out the true intent of a card's text.

    And even then you cannot be sure, at least until WizKids issue a ruling, that is.

    If they do.

    And, most often, this happens around subtle questions of timing.

    Such as when an ability triggers with respect to some event or events.

  16. #16

  17. #17
    Black Manta states that if he is damaged and not KOed during the attack step he deals a damage to your opponent. He has to survive the attack step before he can damage your opponent.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    A level 3 Black Manta: David was forced to attack by a level 2 Toad: Tongue Lashing. Since Toad had a burst, Black Manta took two damage when he attacked. Does Black Manta's ability trigger immediately, dealing 1 damage to the opponent before blockers are assigned?

    If so, would Black Manta's ability trigger again if he was blocked but not KO'd?

    You seem to have two questions asked so lets answer them both.
    Question 1: Black Manta: David, "until wizkids says otherwise", will trigger every time he takes damage and not KO'd during the Attack Step. Easy helper here is to follow this idea - if he's still active when his trigger resolves(I.E. wasn't KO'd)he'll do 1 damage to an opponent of your choice, while your in the Attack Step. Very similar to Nova, just you have to still be active after the damage.
    Question 2: See answer to question 1.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbain View Post
    You seem to have two questions asked so lets answer them both.
    Question 1: Black Manta: David, "until wizkids says otherwise", will trigger every time he takes damage and not KO'd during the Attack Step. Easy helper here is to follow this idea - if he's still active when his trigger resolves(I.E. wasn't KO'd)he'll do 1 damage to an opponent of your choice, while your in the Attack Step. Very similar to Nova, just you have to still be active after the damage.
    Question 2: See answer to question 1.

    If that's the case Barbain, would Gaia the Fierce Knight also get to deal half his damage for each blocker assigned to him? Would the damage be dealt at the time of the blocks? or at the end of the attack step, when we find out if he's KOed or not?

    "IF a character is damaged in the attack step" is a binary question, the answer is yes or no, not How many. "when a character is damage" is an instanced reaction, and occurs as a response to each instance of the trigger.

    Additionally, the rules forum would likely direct you to the Judge's Guidance on this ruling which is to take the least powerful version. Therefore, we should probably not be saying "until WK says otherwise", without having some cited evidence, such as a very similar ruling about another character.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post

    If that's the case Barbain, would Gaia the Fierce Knight also get to deal half his damage for each blocker assigned to him? Would the damage be dealt at the time of the blocks? or at the end of the attack step, when we find out if he's KOed or not?

    "IF a character is damaged in the attack step" is a binary question, the answer is yes or no, not How many. "when a character is damage" is an instanced reaction, and occurs as a response to each instance of the trigger.

    Additionally, the rules forum would likely direct you to the Judge's Guidance on this ruling which is to take the least powerful version. Therefore, we should probably not be saying "until WK says otherwise", without having some cited evidence, such as a very similar ruling about another character.
    Thanks Shadowmeld, you are correct. It most likely would be ruled as a one time of the whole Attack Step. It's a poorly written ability and overall I (IMHO)feel Wizkids needs to work on their wording of abilities that make it clearer on when something triggers and or resolve. And yes by least powerful version this is the correct call.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    "IF a character is damaged in the attack step" is a binary question, the answer is yes or no, not How many. "when a character is damage" is an instanced reaction, and occurs as a response to each instance of the trigger.
    This is the most relevant point anyone should take away from this ability. You cannot know of a character had survived the attack step until the attack step is over, meaning the ability is limited to a single damage potential.

    Until the attack step ends, Black Manta cannot resolve his effect since he has yet to fulfill his trigger condition of not being KO'd and so can only deal his damage at that point.

  22. #22
    I tend to agree, but it's also very easy to parse David as "does an instance of damage in the attack step KO him? If not, deal 1 damage," in which case multiple non-KO'ing pings would deal multiple points of damage.

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