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Thread: Casualties Global Redux

  1. #1

    Casualties Global Redux

    So, Wizkids has ruled the following as it relates to the BAC Casualties global:

    Sometimes you'll gain life [if] multiple Sidekicks are KO'd. The life gain happens whenever an opposing Sidekick is KO'd. If they were all KO'd as a group by a single effect, then you'd gain 1 life. If one was KO'd, and then a second, you'd gain 1 life, and then another 1 life.

    You do get multiple reductions by fielding multiple Sidekick dice. It might reduce it to 0 (remember, this is fielding cost and not purchase cost).
    Obviously, you'd only gain one life if Hulk: Green Goliath or Captain America: Star-Spangled Avenger KO'd a group of SK's at one time with their ability. What if three SKs are KO'd at the same time during the attack step but by different blockers? Is this a 1 or 3 life gain?


  2. #2
    Damage from the attack step is assigned simultaneously. And checking for KO is also simultaneous.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    Damage from the attack step is assigned simultaneously. And checking for KO is also simultaneous.
    Granted but are the three separate blockers considered one effect?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    Granted but are the three separate blockers considered one effect?
    Attack Step damage is one effect.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    Attack Step damage is one effect.
    Wizkids ruled today regarding how many times Hulk: Green Goliath would trigger if blocking a character with Overcrush. Overcrush is considered part of the same damage but a second character with Overcrush would count as a second game effect:

    When a card’s ability is triggered multiple times by the same, simultaneous game effect, the card’s ability only triggers once. Here, there is a single game effect (the attacking Martian Manhunter’s attack damage) which resolves simultaneously. As a result, a card ability triggered by that game effect (Hulk) only triggers once. In your example, Hulk would only deal 3 damage to opposing characters.

    Some people have been confused about what constitutes multiple game effects. A second copy of Martian Manhunter, dealing damage directly to the player, would be an additional game effect.
    Based on this ruling, the attack step is not one effect. My original question was if three SKs are KO'd at the same time during the attack step but by different blockers, would it be a 1 or 3 life gain? It would now seem to be a 3 life gain.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    I think the point they were trying to make here is that one Martian Manhunter is dealing damage by Overcrush activating, the other is dealing damage by being unblocked, therefore being two separate damage triggers during the attack step. Something similar would be Patch causing an Avenger to deal damage once and then deal damage again (on that note, has there been any ruling on if a Patch'd Avenger going unblocked would proc Hulk twice?).

    If that's the case, if three sidekicks were KO'd during the attack step by some combination of combat damage and multiple attack step abilities (say, one is blocked and the other two have damage shifted to them by Bishop), that would gain you 3 life. If three are simply blocked by three characters, that would resolve all at once and you would gain 1 life.

    Using Martian Manhunter as an example of an additional game effect without any further clarification was a bad choice on their part, unfortunately. Just created more questions.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    I think the point they were trying to make here is that one Martian Manhunter is dealing damage by Overcrush activating, the other is dealing damage by being unblocked, therefore being two separate damage triggers during the attack step. Something similar would be Patch causing an Avenger to deal damage once and then deal damage again (on that note, has there been any ruling on if a Patch'd Avenger going unblocked would proc Hulk twice?).

    If that's the case, if three sidekicks were KO'd during the attack step by some combination of combat damage and multiple attack step abilities (say, one is blocked and the other two have damage shifted to them by Bishop), that would gain you 3 life. If three are simply blocked by three characters, that would resolve all at once and you would gain 1 life.

    Using Martian Manhunter as an example of an additional game effect without any further clarification was a bad choice on their part, unfortunately. Just created more questions.
    Their answer is addressing the question about how many times Hulk's ability would trigger, the conditions being if Hulk or the player takes damage. One of the conditions is met twice by two difference sources of damage, occurring simultaneously, but Hulk still triggers twice.

    The important point is that simultaneously occurring damage does not necessarily mean that it is all one game effect. That being the case, three SKs being KO'd by individual blockers would seem to be three concurrent game effects (sources of damage) resulting in a 3 life gain due..

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    The important point is that simultaneously occurring damage does not necessarily mean that it is all one game effect. That being the case, three SKs being KO'd by individual blockers would seem to be three concurrent game effects (sources of damage) resulting in a 3 life gain due..
    If this were the case then that would also imply that three unblocked characters would be three concurrent game effects and Hulk would trigger three times, which explicitly is not the case.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    If this were the case then that would also imply that three unblocked characters would be three concurrent game effects and Hulk would trigger three times, which explicitly is not the case.
    Explicitly?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    If this were the case then that would also imply that three unblocked characters would be three concurrent game effects and Hulk would trigger three times, which explicitly is not the case.
    That's an interesting potential implication.

    First, maybe I'm missing something. How can their explanation be read differently than what I'm suggesting? They cite the rule that damage occurs simultaneously, indicating that two distinct game effects (the Manhunters) in their example are happening concurrently in the attack step.

    Second, perhaps all damage taken at one time by one character or player during the attack step counts as one effect. So three unblocked characters damaging the player would only trigger Hulk once. Let's say Hulk: Green Goliath attacks, is blocked by two characters but not KO'd. It's likely that he doesn't trigger twice for taking damage from two characters but that the damage dealt by his two blockers is lumped together as one effect. Just spit-balling ...
    Last edited by Crestfallen; 06-23-2015 at 04:33 PM.

  12. #12
    I think the dumb part is that they chose to rule this card as sometimes doing anything, instead of changing how their rules work such that the card functions intuitively.

    Did you activate the effect that says "When a sidekick is KO'd, gain 1 life"? How many sidekicks were KO'd? Gain that much life.

    None of this, "Wait wait wait, were some of them "simultaneously" KO'd? Do you even know what that means? Do we even know what that means? Skeep dorp derp herp!"

  13. #13
    From the looks of the AoU and WoL spoilers, they are learning fast. I would compare the first 10 magic sets to these, and you would be SHOCKED at the ridiculousness of the difference. People complain about Star Lord's energy typo, I would site a card that was colored blue and had green icons for his cost. Just as bad in the heydays. Enjoy the crazy while it lasts, when things start getting TOO lawyerese, the lawyers start showing up.

  14. #14
    I'm just bitter this card doesn't synergize with Venom (because "simultaneous").

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by digitallimit View Post
    I'm just bitter this card doesn't synergize with Venom (because "simultaneous").
    It does after Venom is active.

    Just not in any way that is actually useful!

    :P

  16. #16
    Well, the original ruling has been officially overturned and the global now works how I felt it should before they ruled about simultaneous KO's being one trigger:

    The prior ruling in this thread is overturned. Each Sidekick being KO’d is a separate trigger for the Casualties Global Ability even if KO’d simultaneously by the same action or ability.

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