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Thread: What happens when there's more than one blocker on Wolverine: The Best There Is ?

  1. #1

    What happens when there's more than one blocker on Wolverine: The Best There Is ?

    "Wolverine deals double damage to characters that block him."

    What if I gave him overcrush and forced several blockers? Would he then deal that amount of damage to each blocker (really hitting hard), or would he deal damage just once and they would collectively block?

    I recently played with him on my team at a casual constructed event and people were leaning surprisingly toward the former, but I couldn't find anything concrete.

  2. #2
    You double his attack stat and apply that much damage to however many blockers are blocking him.

    That's how I'd play it, anyway.

  3. #3
    Actually, having read a discussion about this on one of the Facebook groups, I've now changed my mind.

    The reason is this, posted by 'Candie Cane':

    I don't think this combo works the way you think it does...

    From the Overcrush answers posted on the official forums, Wizkids tells us: " Overcrush only applies damage to blockers up until the point at which the damage is sufficient to knock the blockers out, and then applies the remaining damage to your opponent."

    So, Wolverine keeps dealing damage, point by point, doubling it, until the blockers are killed, then any remaining Attack, will be assigned to your opponent, un-doubled.
    The reasoning being that you are doubling the damage dealt, rather than doubling his attack value.

  4. #4
    I would agree with your first reading.

    First off, with only one exception (Doctor Octopus), when multiple characters block a single attacker, you don't deal each one the full attack value of the character. It gets divided at the attacker's choice. I don't actually see a functional difference between "double damage dealt" and "double attack value". Damage doesn't get applied point by point, it gets applied as a lump sum (in this case, doubled if blocked).

  5. #5
    Sorry, I think I may need this laid out in an example in order to fully understand, @Scorpion0x17 (edit: and anyone else who would like to share their two cents).

    Let's say I fielded Wolverine on his highest level, where's he's 8A 4D and I force two sidekicks to block him and I give him overcrush through a basic action.

    Does he:
    A) Deal 16A to one sidekick AND another 16A to the other sidekick, knocks them out and lets 30A through to the opponent.

    OR

    B) Deal 16A total, knocks out both blockers, and lets 14A through to the opponent.

    OR

    C) Something else.

  6. #6
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    I say b. First, ignore the overcrush. How would you assign damage? All to one or divided. Divide it any way you want - how much are you assigning? According to the ability, double.

    Now consider with overcrush. Nothing in the first place had changed about how damage is assigned, except now excess hits the player.

    I fully realize there is debate here. I don't mean to dismiss any differing opinion, it's just how I see it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wifey View Post
    Sorry, I think I may need this laid out in an example in order to fully understand, @Scorpion0x17 (edit: and anyone else who would like to share their two cents).

    Let's say I fielded Wolverine on his highest level, where's he's 8A 4D and I force two sidekicks to block him and I give him overcrush through a basic action.

    Does he:
    A) Deal 16A to one sidekick AND another 16A to the other sidekick, knocks them out and lets 30A through to the opponent.

    OR

    B) Deal 16A total, knocks out both blockers, and lets 14A through to the opponent.

    OR

    C) Something else.
    First off, it definitely wouldn't be A. The only person who can pull that off is Doctor Octopus - Mad Scientist:

    When Doctor Octopus is blocked by more than one character, he deals his full attack value in damage to each character blocking him (instead of having to split it).

    So it would be 16A total, divided however you want it. You *could* give all 16 to one Sidekick and none to the other, but then you wouldn't do Overcrush (since all blockers were not removed or KO'd). Or you could deal one to each Sidekick and the remaining 14 to your opponent. So, B.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    My original thought was B.

    However what Candie said on Facebook, and which I now agree with, is that it's C.

    So, let's take the example of the 8/4 Wolverine, with Overcrush, being blocked by 2 SKs:

    I now think you take double Wolverines Attack value, subtract the total Defence of the blockers, then divide by 2 to give you the amount of Overcrush damage dealt to the opponent, thus:

    ((2*18)-2)/2 = (16-2)/2 = 14/2 = 7

  10. #10
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    You're telling me I can deal a half point of damage?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    You're telling me I can deal a half point of damage?
    No, I'm saying an Overcrushing Wolverine's Attack value is doubled whilst assigning damage to blockers but not when assigning damage to the opponent.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    No, I'm saying an Overcrushing Wolverine's Attack value is doubled whilst assigning damage to blockers but not when assigning damage to the opponent.
    So what happens if one sk blocks? Do you not follow the formula? If you do, do you round up or down (and is there precedence for which you choose)?

  13. #13
    I think it's B and here's why. If there are 2 blockers and your character is attacking, you have the option of dealing all of your attack to one of those characters. So characters can receive more damage than what their defensive value is.

  14. #14
    Would you round up or down? If they were invincible sidekicks would i be allowed to deal all that damage to each one? What if I was blocked by just the SR Jocasta? Would the damage be halved since the target has now changed? The precedent that you are establishing is that overcrush damage isn't damage assigned to the characters first, but then carried over to the player.

    More specifically, you are saying that the overcrush damage would be assigned to the player rather than just damaging the player as a side effect of knocking out those blockers. The way I read overcrush, it is in a sense, not combat damage, but direct damage that is triggered as a result of removing all of your blockers. This damage is equal to the amount of damage remaining to be directed to those characters. Another way to look at this is, if I redirect takedown from a villain to a non-villain with storm's global, the ability hasn't resolved yet so we perform checks to see how the action resolves. However if we targeted Storm Lady liberator with our takedown action die, but our opponent had already made her a villain when we redirect the damage to our opponent, they don't take half damage for being not a villain, even though takedown deals twice as much damage to villains.

    In summary, once damage has been assigned, it doesn't check its target again, it just does damage.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    So what happens if one sk blocks? Do you not follow the formula? If you do, do you round up or down (and is there precedence for which you choose)?
    Follow the formula and round down.

    I think there is precedence for that, but I can't find it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Follow the formula and round down.

    I think there is precedence for that, but I can't find it.
    All due respect, I don't see it. I'm gonna have to wait for the ruling on using algebra to calculate TBTI damage before coming to that line of thinking.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    No, I'm saying an Overcrushing Wolverine's Attack value is doubled whilst assigning damage to blockers but not when assigning damage to the opponent.
    Damage == attack. Overcrush deals the leftover damage, not the leftover attack.

    Edit: Here is what I think happens, using the 8/4 face and the 2 sidekicks examples. I'm also assuming you split the damage evenly, so 4 and 4. Wolverine would deal 8 damage to each sidekick (4 doubled up to 8), 2 damage is soaked up by the sidekicks - you deal 14 to the face. If you assign all the damage to one blocker you'd deal 16 to the one sidekick, but since not all of it's blockers were knocked out you'd deal 0 to the face.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Would you round up or down? If they were invincible sidekicks would i be allowed to deal all that damage to each one? What if I was blocked by just the SR Jocasta? Would the damage be halved since the target has now changed?
    Round down after halving.
    If they are invincible SKs it doesn't matter it doesn't matter how you assign the damage as none is getting through anyway.
    If one was Jocasta she would however much damage was assigned to her to the opponent. It would not be halved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    The precedent that you are establishing is that overcrush damage isn't damage assigned to the characters first, but then carried over to the player.
    I see no basis for your assertion that Overcrush damage is anything other than damage in excess of that dealt to the blockers.

    If Overcrush Martian Manhunter is blocked by two SKs, you cannot choose to deal 1 to the first SK and all the rest to the second. You deal 1 to each, and whatever is remaining is dealt to the opponent.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Damage == attack. Overcrush deals the leftover damage, not the leftover attack.
    Attack value determines amount of damage dealt.

    And, the opponent is not a blocker, therefore any left over damage is not doubled.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Attack value determines amount of damage dealt.

    And, the opponent is not a blocker, therefore any left over damage is not doubled.
    Sure, but Overcrush's text actually doesn't care about attack value - it cares about damage dealt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Overcrush
    When attacking, if this character knocks out all of its blockers, it deals any leftover damage to your opponent.
    Wolverine doubles damage. I'm pretty sure it's B. The leftover damage from Wolverine doubling his attack from the blockers is the leftover damage that Overcrush would deal.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Here is what I think happens, using the 8/4 face and the 2 sidekicks examples. I'm also assuming you split the damage evenly, so 4 and 4. Wolverine would deal 8 damage to each sidekick (4 doubled up to 8), 2 damage is soaked up by the sidekicks - you deal 14 to the face. If you assign all the damage to one blocker you'd deal 16 to the one sidekick, but since not all of it's blockers were knocked out you'd deal 0 to the face.
    The ruling referenced by Candie says that when assigning damage from an Overcrushing character, you assign damage to each blocker up to it's dynamic defence (enough to KO it and no more).

    It does not say that you divide the total damage equally amongst the blockers in the way you propose.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Sure, but Overcrush's text actually doesn't care about attack value - it cares about damage dealt.

    Wolverine doubles damage. I'm pretty sure it's B. The leftover damage from Wolverine doubling his attack from the blockers is the leftover damage that Overcrush would deal.
    You're getting hung up on the doubling of the damage.

    Wolverine's ability only says that he deals double damage to his blockers.

    So only the damage assigned to his blockers is doubled.

    The other way to look at it is that the damage Wolverine deals remains unchanged, but it just requires half has much to knock out each blocker.

  23. #23
    You have to assign all damage, I just assumed you assigned you it 4/4, but you could assign it 7/1, 6/2, etc. The point being you have to assign all 8 damage somehow, and no matter how you assign it it's going to get doubled into 16 damage, and of that 16 damage the SK's are going to soak up 2 leaving 14 damage to be dealt.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    If Overcrush Martian Manhunter is blocked by two SKs, you cannot choose to deal 1 to the first SK and all the rest to the second. You deal 1 to each, and whatever is remaining is dealt to the opponent.
    Actually, you can do exactly that. You only do overcrush damage after characters have been KOed, meaning all damage must first be assigned to characters before it is even applied. Only after the characters are knocked out is any remaining damage transfered to a player.

    The reason for this is effects like Mr. fantastic that can prevent damage. If you don't assign damage correctly, you could end up with a situation where you "assigned" damage to the player but damage was prevented and the overcrush damage you thought you had going through was "prevented" because one of your characters ended up not being knocked out.

    Instead, all damage must be assigned to characters, however, as per the rullings forums, if enough damage was assigned to KO the characters, then any remaining damage carries over to the player.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dmrulesteam
    Overcrush only applies damage to blockers up until the point at which the damage is sufficient to knock the blockers out, and then applies the remaining damage to your opponent.
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=5861&p=13883

    Their words. Not mine.

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