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Thread: Human Paladin Global and Overcrush

  1. #1

    Human Paladin Global and Overcrush



    Global: Pay . Reduce the damage you take from a character's ability to 1.

    Overcrush: When attacking, if this character knocks out all of its
    blockers, it deals any leftover damage to your opponent.

    Can I use the Human Paladin's Global Ability and pay a to reduce the Overcrush damage to 1?

  2. #2
    I don't think this has been ruled on, but, my interpretation of the various card texts is:

    Overcrush damage is not caused by the Overcrush ability itself. Overcrush simply modifies the way combat damage is handled.

    So, no, Human Paladin Global cannot be used to reduce said damage to 1.

  3. #3
    Agreed...Overcrush damage is not "ability" damage...it is "combat" damage.

  4. #4
    I disagree. Overcrush is an ability and as such, when you deal damage with overcrush, that damage can be heavily mitigated by Human Paladin.

  5. #5
    Do note, this does not affect actions like Anger Issues since the overcrush is not a character's ability, but an action die's ability.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    I have to agree with Scorp and Meatman on this. Overcrush isn't what is doing the damage, it is just saying how the damage is dealt. The damage is still combat damage from the attacker's Attack value.

    Damage that the Human Pally would mitigate would be more along the lines of direct damage. Like Gobby's Sidekick Fueled Pumpkin Bomb, for instance.

  8. #8
    It comes down to a very poorly explored distinction. Is Overcrush an ability that alters combat damage or and ability that deals damage itself.

    The way we can decide between these is to look at the differences.

    If we think of Overcrush as an ability that triggers after removing all opposing blockers, we could compare it to the burst ability of the starter LA Jinn
    This ability triggers after all combat damage resolves, and could be timied to trigger after other post combat abilities.

    Meanwhile if we look at Overcrush as an ability that modifies combat damage, we should look at this guy

    Could the "damage" from this ability be reduced by paladin?

    Let the debates commence!

  9. #9
    Yes it does, read the rulebook:

    >When attacking, if this character knocks out all of it blockers, it deals any leftover damage to your opponent.

    The ability of overcrush assigns the leftover damage to your opponent. Think of it this way, if you did not have the overcrush ability, you wouldn't deal any damage. Accordingly, the damage must be ebing dealt by the overcrush ability. Following along with this, that damage may be reduced by the Human Paladin global since it is damage from a character ability.

  10. #10
    What about Cyclops: Scott Summers?



    His ability lets him redirect his damage to the opponent instead of blocker. Can Human Paladin's Global reduce that to 1?

    I can really see this going either way. I wish WizKids would start answering rules questions again.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Think of it this way, if you did not have the overcrush ability, you wouldn't deal any damage. Accordingly, the damage must be ebing dealt by the overcrush ability.
    This is a stretch in logic. Let's look at a scenario where we have She-Hulk - Lady Liberater attacking, and our opponent only has one blocker. Our opponent cannot block. If She-Hulk did not have her ability then our opponent could block and she wouldn't deal any damage. Accordingly, the damage must be dealt by She-Hulk's ability.

    There's nothing in any game text or rule wording that indicates that Overcrush as an ability deals damage, rather that it creates a game state where the character who has Overcrush deals the damage.

  12. #12
    Based purely on text, I think I agree with Necro on this one. But if it's ruled the other way, I totally get it.

  13. #13
    I understand that position @alleyviper , but there's a bit of a difference. She-Hulk messes with your opponent's ability to declare blockers, but then deals damage normally. The damage is applied regularly, so Human Paladin is useless. However, overcrush does not apply damage normally. It is an ability that allocates all damage leftover after knocking out the blocking character(s) to the opponent. Since its the ability assigning damage, Human Paladin can negate most of it, whereas he couldn't negate She-Hulks damage since it was not applied by an ability.

  14. #14
    One ability forces your opponent to block a certain way, else the character deals damage to them.
    The other ability forces your opponent to block a certain way, else the character deals damage to them.

    They're both abilities that mess with your opponent's ability to declare blockers, just with different resolutions. In both cases, the character is the source of the damage, which is pretty explicit in the aforementioned rulebook quote on Overcrush. Regardless if Overcrush is what allows the character to deal damage, unless there's a compelling case to be made that Overcrush is actually the source of the damage (and not combat damage from the character), I don't see any real way to conclude that HP's global can reduce damage from an Overcrushing character.

  15. #15
    Breaking down the overcrush ability, there is a trigger (when attacking), conditional (if things are KOed), and effect(deal damage).
    The ability specifically deals damage as its effect. The only thing that makes this ability different than Gobby is the way it calculates the quantity of that damage.

  16. #16
    If we break it down like that, what would we say for something like Patch?

    Trigger (attacking Avenger)
    Condition (unblocked)
    Effect (deals damage twice)

    So are we saying Human Paladin can reduce the second instance of damage from a Patch'd Avenger?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Yes it does, read the rulebook:

    >When attacking, if this character knocks out all of it blockers, it deals any leftover damage to your opponent.
    I'm pretty certain (like 99.99999% sure) that the "it" in that sentence refers to "this character" not Overcrush.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pishposh View Post
    What about Cyclops: Scott Summers?



    His ability lets him redirect his damage to the opponent instead of blocker. Can Human Paladin's Global reduce that to 1?
    No. Again, his ability changes the way combat damage is handled. It does not deal damage in and of itself.

  19. #19
    After reading and rereading, I think the key word here is "deals". If the character is "dealing" their combat damage to the opponent, then the Paladin cannot reduce combat damage. Even if it's leftover combat damage, the character is still dealing combat damage.

  20. #20
    That is a good question, and I would hesitantly say yes, but be unsure about patch specifically because his ability is unique in that it sort of grants a character the ability to attack twice instead of actually dealing the damage directly. However, the way it is written it says it deals damage twice. If I made Nova an avenger, would Nova being unblocked allow his direct damage to be doubled? If so then human paladin would be able to reduce that damage, and I would argue the damage caused by patch's ability could also be reduced if it was simply Hulk attacking.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    That is a good question, and I would hesitantly say yes, but be unsure about patch specifically because his ability is unique in that it sort of grants a character the ability to attack twice instead of actually dealing the damage directly. However, the way it is written it says it deals damage twice. If I made Nova an avenger, would Nova being unblocked allow his direct damage to be doubled? If so then human paladin would be able to reduce that damage, and I would argue the damage caused by patch's ability could also be reduced if it was simply Hulk attacking.
    Why???

    Even if you make Nova an Avenger, and have Patch out, it is still Nova dealing the damage, because of Nova's ability.

    Patch only changes the amount of damage dealt he does not deal damage himself.

    There is precedence for this. Look up the Human Torch "Flame On!" Global ruling.

  22. #22
    I do enjoy reading these discussions. Wouldn't the Overcrush ability only apply during the "assign damage" phase which is after the "use globals" phase of the attack? In other words, you couldn't use the paladin global on the overcrush because overcrush hasn't happened yet. WK rules has already ruled that you cannot use the global prior to the effect taking place.

    Which I guess is what the "combat damage" argument is saying. Oh well.

  23. #23
    Actually, the more we bat this around, the more I think that Overcrush doesn't apply and I go back to my original thoughts. I think k Randy put it best, if the damage is combat damage, even if it is redirected, the source is still the same, and that source is still combat damage.

    I will say, that the argument that a character was doing damage and not their ability, is close to this same thought, but was putting me off because characters abilities still count as them doing the damage so the logic of the argument seemed flawed. I now see that what was really meant is that the character was doing the COMBAT damage and not his ability generating the damage.

    The distinction here is that some abilities can cause characters to do damage, even if they aren't doing combat damage. Gambit Cardsharp for example.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidH View Post
    I do enjoy reading these discussions. Wouldn't the Overcrush ability only apply during the "assign damage" phase which is after the "use globals" phase of the attack? In other words, you couldn't use the paladin global on the overcrush because overcrush hasn't happened yet. WK rules has already ruled that you cannot use the global prior to the effect taking place.

    Which I guess is what the "combat damage" argument is saying. Oh well.
    Redirection and prevention globals can be used as responses at anytime.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Actually, the more we bat this around, the more I think that Overcrush doesn't apply and I go back to my original thoughts. I think k Randy put it best, if the damage is combat damage, even if it is redirected, the source is still the same, and that source is still combat damage.

    I will say, that the argument that a character was doing damage and not their ability, is close to this same thought, but was putting me off because characters abilities still count as them doing the damage so the logic of the argument seemed flawed. I now see that what was really meant is that the character was doing the COMBAT damage and not his ability generating the damage.

    The distinction here is that some abilities can cause characters to do damage, even if they aren't doing combat damage. Gambit Cardsharp for example.
    Pretty much what I said in the very first reply in the thread, then.


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