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Thread: Asking how many dice in opponents bag...

  1. #1

    Asking how many dice in opponents bag...

    So, asking how many dice are in your opponents bag...

    • Do you do it?
    • Do you answer honestly when asked?
    • Do you think it should be explicitly allowed in the tournament rules?
    • Do you think answering honestly should be explicitly required by the tournament rules?
    • Do you think 'dice counting' is an important part of the game?
    • Do you think not answering, or not answering honestly, is pointless as all the information in the game is open and, well, I can waste five minutes of every turn counting how many of each die you have, if you really want me to, or you could just tell me?
    • Does whether you are playing online, over Google Hangout or Skype, or not affect your answers to the above questions?

  2. #2
    Yes I ask, but I don't require my opponent to answer.

    I always answer honestly when asked.

    I think that answering should not be required by tournament rules.

    I think that answering dishonestly should be outlawed by tournament rules.

    Dice counting is part of the game, but it isn't important. It's an ancillary mechanic that crowds out the core gameplay.

    I think that not answering is entirely pointless and just wastes time/shows poor sportsmanship.

    No, format does not change my answers to these questions. Even in Vassal I think these rules of thumb stand.

  3. #3
    I agree with Necro across the board other than I don't ask.

  4. #4
    Yes, when it matters for a decision I need to make and I'm not 100% sure already.

    Absolutely.

    I don't feel strongly either way.

    Yes, if you're allowed to know then an honest answer is required.

    Yes

    Haven't ever had this happen. DM is a pretty friendly game around here.

    I've never played online.

  5. #5
    is there an actual ruling on if that is something that can be asked? knowing or not knowing can have impacts on certain situations. knowing if your opponent will be refilling their bag is pretty important.

  6. #6
    Is there ever an instance when you could not deduce the dice in your opponent's bag?

    In the interest of time (when asked) I tell my opponent which dice are in my bag or pull them out to show them.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ONEone78 View Post
    is there an actual ruling on if that is something that can be asked? knowing or not knowing can have impacts on certain situations. knowing if your opponent will be refilling their bag is pretty important.
    Apparently at worlds it was ruled that an opponent did not have to reveal anything about what was in their bag... BUT they had to have their team sheet available to look at any time it was asked for. So basically you could refuse to answer, but then your opponent could just take your team sheet and count it out for themselves.

    So I just honestly answer the question of # because it's just a huge waste of time to not answer the question.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    So, asking how many dice are in your opponents bag...

    • Do you do it?
    • Do you answer honestly when asked?
    • Do you think it should be explicitly allowed in the tournament rules?
    • Do you think answering honestly should be explicitly required by the tournament rules?
    • Do you think 'dice counting' is an important part of the game?
    • Do you think not answering, or not answering honestly, is pointless as all the information in the game is open and, well, I can waste five minutes of every turn counting how many of each die you have, if you really want me to, or you could just tell me?
    • Does whether you are playing online, over Google Hangout or Skype, or not affect your answers to the above questions?
    Wizkids Tournament Rules
    Dice Bags: Players may look into their own dice bag, but not their opponent’s. They must mix their dice well before drawing.
    I do not ask my opponent how many dice are in their bag.
    Don't answer.
    Not until they change the above tournament rule to allow the opponent to look into your bag.
    Shouldn't be something to worry about. Leads to cheating issues on both players.
    Dice counting is not important so long as rolling dice remains random in the game.
    Until they change the above tournament rule your opponent needs to work it out themselves.
    Online should be making the board state look and feel like your live thus brings nothing new to the table as to the rules.

    I personally feel Wizkids should just get rid of the above rule, since I think it has no bearing on the game since you can come to the knowledge your self. The only part that needs to be there is the mixing of dice well after any look into a bag, which should just be stated as part of the draw mechanic of the game, and not needed in the tournament rules.

  9. #9
    yeah, that says your opponent can't look in there, but nothing about asking how many are in there. it just needs to be clarified. if they say "no you can't ask about anything" then fine, do the math. but until they say one way or another it isn't as clear as it should be.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    So, asking how many dice are in your opponents bag...

    • Do you do it?
    • Do you answer honestly when asked?
    • Do you think it should be explicitly allowed in the tournament rules?
    • Do you think answering honestly should be explicitly required by the tournament rules?
    • Do you think 'dice counting' is an important part of the game?
    • Do you think not answering, or not answering honestly, is pointless as all the information in the game is open and, well, I can waste five minutes of every turn counting how many of each die you have, if you really want me to, or you could just tell me?
    • Does whether you are playing online, over Google Hangout or Skype, or not affect your answers to the above questions?
    *I have never once asked my opponent what was in their bag.

    *I always answer, "if you have any questions about how many dice were on any one card at the start, I'm more than happy to tell you." - Personally, if someone started wasting time for it in a setting with a judge, I would call that person over, as my opponent should be able to take inventory of my dice during my turn(s) and not waste their turns' time trying to figure it out. This is very basic math, but still, a part of the game that I believe in as being a part of the game, just as counting anything is in any game which involves it at all.

    *The tournament rules should not force anyone to have to tell their opponent anything about anything, including the number of dice in their bag. Everything is out in the open from the start to keep track of, and it's not all that much, to put it lightly.

    *This question is fairly similar to the previous one, at least in how I answer, as I don't care if the rulebook wants to say you can ask your opponent, but one should not be required to answer. However, answering purposely incorrectly shouldn't be allowed either. That just creates a whole new weird mind-game meta-game that ends up in so much time wasted trying to figure out ways to bluff your bag... I can't even begin to imagine how petty things could get if you were allowed to lie about what's in your bag. Theoretically, it shouldn't matter, because as I previously stated, subtracting the number of sidekick dice showing on the board into your opponents' bag, plus whatever dice they have purchased that aren't on the board, subtracted into the opponents' bag, shouldn't be math that is beyond the minimum recommended age level of the game. The bottom line, however, is that no, one should no be allowed to purposely lie; that would just lead to so much wasted time and trifles.

    *I don't think that dice counting is the most important part of the game, but I think that it's important inasmuch as one should always be keeping track of it, just like one would in a game of Spades. Part of the game is keeping track of the dice going into and out of your opponents' bag, even if it is ostensibly an easy thing to figure out; the game is made of up of many easier things that add up to an experience where one is juggling lots of easy ideas that create one larger, more complicated idea - at the very least.

    *I have kind of previously answered this, and I can see how not answering is pointless; online, I will always kind of help out, because it's easy to look at something else and forget to watch your opponent purchase something or this or that, but in real life, I make it my responsibility to keep track of my opponent, and as previously stated, will never ask my opponent what's up with their bag. I will ask how many dice a certain card started with, but that's all - and I'll never stretch this out to more than a minute or two before I go on, just as I wouldn't want my opponent to, and even me doing that not during my opponent's turn is rare. I can see how you can argue your opponent is just going to stall trying to figure it out, but if my opponent kept stalling over it, I'd call a judge, as it isn't my responsibility (yet) to tell them what's in my bag, and they shouldn't be wasting game time trying to do the math over it.

    *As I previously stated, when playing online, I throw most of those rules out the window, just because so much can distract one.

  11. #11
    I have asked before just to speed things along. I have no problem sorting out how may dice are up for play on my opponents side but sometimes it is quicker just to inquire. I would never ever require or coerce someone into revealing that information but would consider it good sportsmanship in just answering rapidly.

    It can say it does 100% effect how I am going to play something. Case in point. I had a Millennium Puzzle in play and just shy of dealing lethal on that turn and debated using it to remove something from my opponent's side. I opted to ask how many dice were in their bag first because it would impact using the Puzzle on this turn or next turn when I could possible swing for lethal. I wanted to ensure that they were not going to be able to possible draw and reroll the blocker I wanted to remove before I made the decision. It ended up being the right call by saving it a turn and not using it because the had 2 dice in bag and a reload of 6 dice. I ended up winning the match the following turn because I was able to suss what was in my opponents bag.

    I mention that case because when I asked my opponent how many dice he had in his bag he called the judge over to make a ruling on that particular issue. He judged that it isn't required but would be considered just being a good sport to tell me. I would have been more than happy to sit and figure it out myself if it went the other way.

    As an aside I would say that calling stalling because your opponent is figuring out how many dice are in your bag would be considered a little rude. It is a very important tactic to know in some very key decisions that need to be made. It is all about making a proper judgment call. I would liken it to viewing the over all game state and available options before making the decision to attack in a complex board state. Sometimes it takes a few moments to hash out whether it is worth attacking now or attacking later. Sussing the number of dice in a bag is no different. Just because your opponent doesn't look like they are doing anything important does not mean that they are in fact stalling.

  12. #12
    I will ask and answer, and I've never had anyone make a fuss about it one way or another. It's information that could easily be determined anyway, so why make it a "thing"? It's not hidden.

    Sportsmanship.

  13. #13
    As the TO at my venue, I've told my players that they are required to give an honest answer to the number of dice in their bag at any time. It speeds up the game, and anything that does that, especially in games that are prone to going to turns, I think is a good thing. Yes, it's something people can count, but if you just give the info, you probably get in 1 more turn, and that's a good thing. It may also keep you more aware of what's going on in your bag, and that can help you be a better player.

  14. #14
    I find most people will answer. If you have a team sheet and I have a team sheet and if we can all do math we can figure it out. But the game moves so much quicker if we play like good sports and give info that ultimately isn't secret.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mathguy6189 View Post
    As the TO at my venue, I've told my players that they are required to give an honest answer to the number of dice in their bag at any time. It speeds up the game, and anything that does that, especially in games that are prone to going to turns, I think is a good thing. Yes, it's something people can count, but if you just give the info, you probably get in 1 more turn, and that's a good thing. It may also keep you more aware of what's going on in your bag, and that can help you be a better player.
    Same here, it's never been an issue, but easy to house rule.

  16. #16
    I prefer not asking/not answering but I'm so highly analytical when I'm locked in and playing that I actually enjoy sitting there and sussing out the specifics of what all is where on my opponent's side.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by mathguy6189 View Post
    As the TO at my venue, I've told my players that they are required to give an honest answer to the number of dice in their bag at any time. It speeds up the game, and anything that does that, especially in games that are prone to going to turns, I think is a good thing. Yes, it's something people can count, but if you just give the info, you probably get in 1 more turn, and that's a good thing. It may also keep you more aware of what's going on in your bag, and that can help you be a better player.
    I'm with you 100%. It can be worked out easily, it just saves time, therefore giving both players more time to focus on actually playing and interacting. In my opinion, there is no real reason to be against the practice unless your goal is to attempt to rule-shark the other player, cheat, or just be a bad sport in general. Dave is 2Fast2Furious as always and beats me to it every time, but seriously, just be a good sport and have a good time playing Dice Masters.

  18. #18
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    In an event this week, I was working out what my opponent had in his bag, and I verbalized it - something like "ok so two sk and poly." His response was surprise that I nailed it. I think locally, as you work to build a community, sportsmanship (telling or sharing) is primary. In the meta or high profile tournaments, gamesmanship (knowing) takes priority. Probably not hard lines here, but that's my approach.

  19. #19
    Likely, JT, that surprise was more "how did he figure that out faster than me? It's my bag!"

  20. #20
    I'm in agreement with everyone saying that it could easily be figured out with a little bit of arithmetic. But it's a silly thing for either side to get upset over. I'd rather just tell what is in the bag and move on with the actual game and not the mental math exercise.

  21. #21
    The best thing one can do is constantly remind themselves that everyone starts with 8 sk. From there its easy math

    My playgroup has the house rule where you must answer truthfully when asked how many dice are in your bag, though. I like it and don't feel it detracts from gameplay in any meaningful way. Knowing the MEANING of how many dice are left in a bag is much more important - when to resurrect, how to guarantee certain things, etc.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I will ask and answer, and I've never had anyone make a fuss about it one way or another. It's information that could easily be determined anyway, so why make it a "thing"? It's not hidden.

    Sportsmanship.
    I agree. I just finished playing this morning. When my opponent asked how many dice were in my bag I told him and commented on having read through this thread a few days ago. I later asked him the same to help determine what I should Constantine and he refused to say now that he knew he didn't have to. So I quickly counted up his visible dice and Constantined Human Torch, of which two came out.

    There's no reason not to answer honestly.

  23. #23
    I will talk through what's in my opponents bag when I'm trying to count their dice, but I never ask. The rules say it's not something you have to tell your opponent. If asked, I don't lie about it, but depending on the situation I might not answer. While this is a fun game and sometimes I'm just at an event to have a good time, if I'm in a close game and my opponent asks me for information that the rules say I don't have to give him, I'm not going to give it to him. I'm won't be a jerk about it, but I also don't let people re-roll their dice after fielding a character in a close game. Once you field that sidekick, you have left the roll and re-roll step. It's the same thing in my mind, skirting the rules.
    I've been in situations where I was counting my opponents dice, I forgot he had purchased a die and counted incorrectly. I made a move based on him drawing four sidekicks next turn. Instead he drew 3 sidekicks and a character that killed me. That's my fault. He didn't break the rules, and he wasn't unsportsmanlike for not telling me I was wrong when I was counting his dice out loud. That's on me for making a mistake, not him.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Flexei View Post
    Apparently at worlds it was ruled that an opponent did not have to reveal anything about what was in their bag... BUT they had to have their team sheet available to look at any time it was asked for. So basically you could refuse to answer, but then your opponent could just take your team sheet and count it out for themselves.

    So I just honestly answer the question of # because it's just a huge waste of time to not answer the question.
    That is as perfect of an answer as you can hope for, right there.

  25. #25
    I feel like the fact that an opponent can't look in your bag indicates they aren't privy to that information. It would seem to me a decision that is designed to give players who pay attention an advantage, as opposed to making that info public.
    I do think lying about it is flat out wrong, but I also don't feel it's a question I have to answer.

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