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Thread: Article: Reading the Rainbow Age of Ultron Episode 0 The Maria Hill Debate

  1. #1

    Article: Reading the Rainbow Age of Ultron Episode 0 The Maria Hill Debate


  2. #2
    In your discussion about method 4 you correctly point out that character dice on an energy face are not considered character dice.

    When a die goes to used because of Wind-Rider it is on an energy face and is therefore not a character die.

    Therefore I think method 1 is as shaky as method 4.

    And don't get me started on method 3 (or Thanos for that matter).

    I believe method 2 is the only one that has any kind of firm, stable, foundation in the rules.

  3. #3
    These are all very important points that yes, wizkids, need to clarify BEFORE draft. In fact, my first draft will be when this set releases and I have at least 1 player who will question and argue these interpretations if it is working against him (and I would rather avoid that).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    In your discussion about method 4 you correctly point out that character dice on an energy face are not considered character dice.

    When a die goes to used because of Wind-Rider it is on an energy face and is therefore not a character die.

    Therefore I think method 1 is as shaky as method 4.

    And don't get me started on method 3 (or Thanos for that matter).

    I believe method 2 is the only one that has any kind of firm, stable, foundation in the rules.

    I agree - I don't think that #1 would work since the die is now on an energy face.

    #3 though I case see the argument for. I guess we'll have to see if WizKid rules that "while active" is implied for this one. Until they do though I'd try to use #3 in a draft and argue for it of others did.

  5. #5
    As you mentioned in your initial post, they have to be in states that consider them characters. So the only one that works really is #2. Dice on cards are just dice, not characters or actions or energy (yet). They have affiliations, but no other status.

  6. #6
    I guess I should have used an uncommon Wonderman example instead of the Storm one for point 1. I can definitely see the argument made that when you reroll it comes up energy. On the other hand, I would also argue that these dice were targetted as character dice at the beginning of the effect, and were refilled as a point of randomization, and if the randomizer comes up energy they would normally be sent to the Reserve to become energy dice, but instead are being sent there, the game effect sends them to the used. Thus, a character die is being sent to the used because of an ability.

    Definitely a debate to be had there. Point one though is more cleanly illustrated by characters being knocked out in combat by uncommon Wonder Man dice.

  7. #7
    Ok, ignoring the fact that the Wonderman example will never happen, I can see an argument for it triggering off card abilities that send character dice straight to used.

    But as for the randomiser argument - they would normally go to reserve when they come up energy because they are then considered energy dice and energy dice cannot exist in the field.

  8. #8
    So, if you run Trinity War Superman with Maria Hill and manage to get him KO'd and her sent to the used pile at the same time, you can get Superman back to prep. I still don't like that card.

  9. #9
    If Number 3 is correct, her common may just break the game. You could theoretically have a rare Tarrasque rolling turn 3. Combine this with the cost 3 Sangan and bring a non-shield win condition that early.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    I view this ability as “character” qualifying “die” to denote that this means a single die (language that is now being used to clean up past ambiguities whether a game effect can be applied to any die of that character or a single die). I would not subscribe a specific facial application to the die in question in order to trigger this effect.
    I would rule, barring any official ruling, that whenever a Maria Hill die and a shield energy character die move to the Used Pile simultaneously, this effect would trigger, moving these dice to the Prep Area. This includes movement:
    • from the Out of Play Area to the Used Pile after attacking while not blocked
    • from the Out of Play Area to the Used Pile during the Clean-Up step
    • from a character card to the Used Pile upon purchase during the Main Step (I would say all dice purchases in the Main Step are done simultaneously)
    • from the Field directly to the Used Pile because of a card ability (e.g. Storm – Wind Rider)

    The Out of Play zone is a designated Play Area in the (AoU) Rule Book, so it has the same game recognition as any other Play Area (e.g. the Field and Reserve). Dice that are moving between these areas have no “facial” status (meaning they are not considered an energy or character face). While a game effect may trigger their movement to another Play Area depending on the current state of the applicable die at the start of the movement (e.g. Storm – Wind Rider forcing a die in the field that rolled an energy face to be moved to the Used Pile), once the die is moved to the Used Pile it is irrelevant what face was rolled that moved it there. This was clarified in the following ruling, which was in reference on how Iron ManPhoenix Buster’s ability worked:

    Description: Iron Man – Phoenix Buster
    Each time Iron Man takes damage, you may move 1 Sidekick from your used pile to your prep area.

    Wizkids Ruling: “Move Sidekick vs. Move Sidekick die (7Nov2014)
    Q: When a character's ability refers to "move 1 Sidekick from your Used Pile to your Prep Area", is the ability granting the movement of a Sidekick die that was used as energy, or is it only granting the movement of a die that had been moved to the Used Pile as a Sidekick character?
    A: Dice in the Used Pile have no memory of how they got there. Despite different wordings, both of these effects function in the same way.”

  12. #12
    @archivist well said. My thoughts exactly. I only disagree with the purchasing aspect. I don't know if they would be considered to hit the Used at the same time. I can see having to resolve one purchase at a time, despite being able to move double energy faces at once to pay for both. Everything else, I agree. :slow clap:

  13. #13
    Hmm...

    That certainly is a quite convincing argument.

  14. #14
    this character - This tells us that the ability refers to a die, not a card, and that the die must be in a state which qualifies as a character.
    and a character - this phrase puts a limitation on the ability, but also reaffirms that the dice in question must both be characters.
    Is this a misread? The card in the picture states "this character die and a [S] character die," which changes the analysis (particularly on 2 and 3). My best reading of the rulebook is that a "character die" refers to the die as a whole, unless is it is a rolled "energy die" in the field or Reserve Pool per p. 22 of the rulebook. So, under that assumption, I'd say:

    1) According to p. 22, the dice become "energy dice" after they're re-rolled and therefore don't trigger the ability. I agree with Scorpion and disagree with Archivist on this one, although it's really tricky and there's an argument that the result of the re-roll isn't energy, just not a character.
    2) The dice are both "character dice," either because they were in the field on a character face or because they are no longer "rolled dice" when they leave play (p. 22). The ability triggers when the dice "go to the Used Pile" from Out of Play.
    3) When a die is sitting on a card, it's a "character die" (p. 2–3). When it is purchased and enters the Used Pile, it's still a character die (p. 22). The ability triggers when the dice "go to the Used Pile."
    4) See 1 above. The dice are "energy dice" and therefore don't trigger the ability.
    ----------
    Here's a much more interesting case:

    5) During my clear and draw step, I draw and roll the following: Maria Hill (L3-FC1), Hulk (L3-FC3), Jocasta (L1-FC1), and a Fist energy. I can't field Hulk, and I can't field both Maria and Jocasta. I spend the Fist to field Jocasta, leaving the other two characters in my Reserve Pool. At the end of my Main Step, both are unfielded and go to my Used Pile (p. 9). Maria Hill's ability activates, and they both go to my Prep Area instead.

  15. #15
    @CBattles6 I’m assuming the following is the Rule Book passage (p22) you are citing (included for edification only):

    “Rolled dice in the field or in your Reserve Pool are considered to be whatever their face is. If you have a Sidekick Die in the Reserve Pool showing energy, then it’s an energy die. If you have a Sidekick showing the character face in your field, then it’s a character die. Dice in your Used Pile, Prep Area, and bag are not considered rolled dice. Their dice type is either character or action, based on what faces they have.”

    Also refer to this this WizKids ruling:
    “Action Dice vs. Character/Monster Dice (14May2015)
    As they exist before they are in play (i.e., in your dice bag), there are three types of dice: action dice, character dice, and sidekick dice. The language from the rulebook that speaks of “two types” of dice says, “Cards and their associated dice come in two types: characters and actions.” This statement is accurate, because sidekicks do not have cards associated with them, and thus are a third type of dice not referenced in the language quoted from the rulebook. Sidekick dice may later also be considered character dice if rolled on a character face, but they are not considered character dice unless and until that occurs—i.e., as they exist in your bag, they are ‘sidekick dice’ only, not ‘character dice.’ “

    Germane to my point, is interpreting the meaning of “character die” in the Maria Hill ability. Given past rulings (e.g. on the Teamwork BAC) clarifying the meaning of the word “character” (one vs. many), I’m taking the context of Maria’s ability to be just that – clarifying a single Maria Hill die is the object of the ability, vice the facial state of the die.

    There are only three types of dice: character, action, and Sidekick (until they are rolled onto a character face, then the SK die becomes a character die). The citation above from the Rule Book is expounding on the how to apply the dice based on their Play Area location and face. The context by which the words “energy die” is in reference to a Sidekick die and the delineation of the facial aspect of that die for purposes of game application, not assigning that die a “type”. This is further clarified in the 14May ruling.

    So, refuting your assumption, a die does not become an energy die. It is a character (or Sidekick) die showing an energy face. The last sentence of the Rule Book citation above also supports my explanation.

    Per your point (5), while it sounds unorthodox, you’ve uncovered a neat trick in using Maria Hill’s ability to churn your dice faster (assuming my interpretation of her ability is ruled correct). Bravo!

  16. #16
    @archivist

    I completely understand your reasoning; I just don't read the card and p. 22 that way. If I'm looking at the card fresh, unaware of the seedy underworld of WizKids rulings, I read the phrase "character die," and I find where that's defined in the rulebook. After reading pp. 2–3, I conclude that "character dice" are the six-sided things that go with each "character card." I also read p. 22, and learn that they're still considered "character dice" while in the Used Pile, Prep Area, and bag.

    However, "[r]olled dice in the field or in your Reserve Pool are considered to be whatever their face is." For example (and that's the only thing I need to read into the rules), "[i]f you have a Sidekick Die in the Reserve Pool showing energy, then it's an energy die." The first sentence refers to all rolled dice, not just Sidekicks. It logically follows that other dice capable of showing energy, like character dice, can also be considered energy dice when on those faces in the field or Reserve Pool. The May 14 ruling you quoted doesn't contradict any of this, because it doesn't 1) mention character dice rolled onto energy faces or 2) state (or imply) that Sidekick Dice are the only dice capable of this "type change."

    Reading the term "character die" to mean "one of Maria Hill's dice" ignores the fact that "character die" is a defined term in this game, with its own particular rules. It also ignores the possibility that, according to p. 22, a "character die" can be "considered to be" other things in certain situations, like an energy die if rolled on that face. P. 22 is where the clarification is needed—not Maria Hill. Specifically, I'd ask these two questions (in fact, I just did):

    1) Are "character dice" considered "energy dice" when rolled on their energy faces in the field or Reserve Pool?
    2) If yes, when does an "energy die" revert to being a "character," "sidekick," or "action" die?
    Last edited by CBattles6; 07-08-2015 at 01:46 AM.

  17. #17
    I fully understand that reading the rules literally would lead to your conclusions and that there is still some ambiguity in the language used. There has been much discussion around the word "character" and its game effect applications.

    However, there are only 3 types of dice, and energy is not one of them. These dice types have character/action and energy faces but not one card in DM uses the phrase "energy die". There are cards that use the phrase "energy face" to denote what to do with that die if it rolls energy. Examples:

    Black Canary – Canary Cry: When fielded, you may roll an opposing character. If it is a character face, return it to the field. If it is an energy face, add it to your opponent’s Prep Area.

    Carrion Crawler – Paragon Aberration: When assigned to attack, roll all opposing NPCs. Move those showing energy faces to the prep area.

    Catwoman – Femme Fatale: When fielded, you may choose to roll this die. If it is a character face, KO target opposing character and leave Catwoman in play on the rolled face. If you roll an energy face, add Catwoman to your Prep Area.

    Limited Wish – Lesser Spell: Choose any unpurchased die (yours or from the basic actions cards) and roll it. If you roll a non-energy face, place the die in your used pile.

    Umber Hulk – Paragon Beast: When fielded, reroll all opposing level 1 and 2 characters. Move each die that shows an energy face to your opponent's used pile.


    Since cards have text that specify what to do when an energy face (or character/action face) is rolled, and also have text specifying what to do when a character or action die is affected, the logical conclusion is when a card’s ability states a character die, it is distinguishing two things: (a) a character vice an action die, and (b) a single die component vice all dice representing that applicable character (or other category, like an affiliation or level).

    So, to answer your questions:
    1) Are "character dice" considered "energy dice" when rolled on their energy faces in the field or Reserve Pool?

    No, a character die that rolls an energy face is still a character die.

    2) If yes, when does an "energy die" revert to being a "character," "sidekick," or "action" die?

    See answer to (1).


    Appreciate the debate. Cheers.

  18. #18

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