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Thread: Loki - Loki Laufeyson

  1. #1

    Loki - Loki Laufeyson

    While Loki is active, once per turn you may pay to deal 1 damage to a character die. That character die loses all of its abilities until end of turn. You may use this ability whenever you could use a Global Ability.
    There are two questions involved here, and I feel like they're both pretty straightforward, but I figure it can't hurt to get it out there in the court of popular opinion.

    Firstly, does something taking damage from Loki's ability, such as Hulk or Jocasta, lose their ability before it can proc? I feel like that's a pretty clear 'yes' given that Loki's ability would have to completely resolve before the other character's ability can take effect, and at the point where it checks for damage there is no ability to activate.

    Secondly, let's say my opponent has two Hulks in play. I use Loki on Left Hulk, cancelling Left Hulk's ability. Does Right Hulk still maintain his? Again, this seems like a pretty clear 'yes' since Loki's text reads "that character die loses all of its abilities", and since it doesn't say that the character loses its text a la Constantine or Prismatic Spray.


    Thoughts? Counter points?

  2. #2
    I would strenghten that too,

    TWO BIG YES!

    I think to remember somewhere on a FAQ or so from WK was written a character die means only him, otherwise i would text printed for the Card like for Cerebro.

  3. #3
    I would say a definite yes for the second one. The first one should probably be ruled by WK officially, but I would lean towards a yes as well, for the reason you state. The only thing that would cause me to question it is the fact that characters that are KO'd by damage still process their "When damageed" effects, even though they are no longer active. I think this is different than that, but a clear ruling would definitely help.

  4. #4
    Another thing, if you have multiple Loki fielded, are you limited to only using his ability once, or is it once per die? Typically While active abilities do not stack if multiple dice are fielded.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pishposh View Post
    Another thing, if you have multiple Loki fielded, are you limited to only using his ability once, or is it once per die? Typically While active abilities do not stack if multiple dice are fielded.
    I would definitely say once per turn, regardless of number of dice fielded.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by pishposh View Post
    Another thing, if you have multiple Loki fielded, are you limited to only using his ability once, or is it once per die? Typically While active abilities do not stack if multiple dice are fielded.
    ditto for my thoughts. the wording "While Loki is active" seems to mean "while a die from this card is active". so likely once no matter how many loki's you've got out there.

  7. #7
    I agree 3 times with the 3 questions posed

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    There are two questions involved here, and I feel like they're both pretty straightforward, but I figure it can't hurt to get it out there in the court of popular opinion.

    Firstly, does something taking damage from Loki's ability, such as Hulk or Jocasta, lose their ability before it can proc? I feel like that's a pretty clear 'yes' given that Loki's ability would have to completely resolve before the other character's ability can take effect, and at the point where it checks for damage there is no ability to activate.

    Secondly, let's say my opponent has two Hulks in play. I use Loki on Left Hulk, cancelling Left Hulk's ability. Does Right Hulk still maintain his? Again, this seems like a pretty clear 'yes' since Loki's text reads "that character die loses all of its abilities", and since it doesn't say that the character loses its text a la Constantine or Prismatic Spray.


    Thoughts? Counter points?
    Just guessing based on the way they usually rule things...

    First one - I think you got it. Loki's ability resolves completely before Hulk's, so by the time Hulk's trigger would get do the check for abilities, it's already lost the abilities it may have been able to use causing the trigger to fire a blank.

    Second one - Most likely one of the situations avoided by not allowing 2 identical characters on the same team, but I believe they've said that dice in general always remember what card they came from, and what affiliations they have, no matter where they are (fielded, used, etc.) unless affected by a game effect. So theoretically the Right die should not be affected by the Left die's loss of abilities.

  9. #9
    Rule book support of the first one being YES:
    "Once activated, an effect is always resolved entirely before the next effect begins."

    So, Loki's ability needs to be resolved completely before the Hulk ability would begin. Then, of course, it can't begin because it isn't there.

  10. #10
    I typed something up (it's still visible below, as it's fairly accurate) and went to look up something and found the following:

    AoU rulebook, page 21: "Some powers prevent a game effect (damage, drawing a die, etc.). This
    includes cards that “take no damage.” When an action is prevented, all
    of the effects of that ability are canceled, and that effect can no longer
    be reacted to. Costs for that ability are not refunded.

    Other powers redirect a game effect (usually damage). When an
    effect is redirected, the target of the effect changes from its original
    target to the new one as described in the game text, even if that target
    was not a legal one for the original effect. The source of the effect
    remains unchanged from the original."

    So in regards to the cards specifically asked about, they should lose their effects in the way everyone's talking about for the most part, with the exception being Jacosta - Patterned After Janet. In that case you would take the damage instead of her (though in this example, it'd still be a good play, since it only happens once per turn).

    I'm not sure about what happens if the damage is reduced to 0 or prevented though, like with Iron Man - Upright or Thor - Thunderer ("Prevent all non-combat damage to Thor."). My gut wants to say if the damage is reduced to 0 the loss of ability is also cancelled (least sure about this compared to everything else, and not relevant to Loki, but if at least 1 point of damage goes through, the ability would still happen) and if damage is prevented the whole ability is prevented, but I'm not 100% sure.



    What I originally typed:
    While I agree with everyone here on most of this, I think Jacosta, specifically Patterned after Janet, would still redirect. Her ability doesn't activate when she's damaged, it adjusts the damage. It comes down to if you can choose what order the parts of the effect happen in (so if you can have her lose her ability then deal the damage) or if things happen in the order listed. (Also, I know when two effects happen at the same time the active player chooses, but that applies to effects them selves, not individual parts of them).

    This extends out to anything that increases, decreases, prevents, redirects, or otherwise interacts with the damage itself rather than being triggered by it, i.e. Iron Man - Upright.

  11. #11
    I agree, prevention and redirection mechanics resolve before the game effect (be it an ability or combat damage) that triggered them resolves. Thus, Loki on Jocasta would trigger her redirect, as the loki ability hasn't fully resolved yet.

  12. #12
    It would be good to have a forum ruling on it, but the ability doesn't specify that the damage has to actually be taken for the character to lose their ability. There is no if/then, the target of Loki's ability takes a point of damage and also loses their ability.

    To that end, I'm not convinced that Loki's ability doesn't fully resolve all at once the moment you activate it, giving Jocasta no chance to redirect in the first place.

  13. #13
    I think any damage prevention or redirection would absolutely nullify Loki's ability here. As noted above, if all the damage is prevented, then it didn't happen.

  14. #14
    The damage is prevented, sure, but I don't see where in the ability it states that damage has to happen for a character to lose its ability. There's nothing like the when/then wording on Red Dragon's global, for example.

    e: I do think WK would probably rule that the damage needs to happen but I don't think I would agree with that based on the wording.

  15. #15
    I think the Hulk triggering when he is KO'd ruling points to the answer to the first question being that any 'when damaged' ability would trigger.

  16. #16
    There are two key differences in my mind for that comparison. One being the difference between simply taking damage vs taking damage involved in an ability, which has the precedent of needing the entire ability to resolve before another ability can activate. Two being that characters who are KO'd in combat don't move to prep until the cleanup step, so there is a natural window for characters who take lethal damage in combat to still have a chance to use their ability before they leave the field.

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