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Thread: AOU Captain America: Super Soldier

  1. #1

    AOU Captain America: Super Soldier

    Captain America: Super Soldier
    While active, prevent all but 1 damage to you from any action or character abilities.

    Human Torch: Johnny Storm
    Each time you field a character, Human Torch deals 1 damage to your opponent and one to a target character.

    Black Manta: Deep Sea Deviant
    Retaliation - If one of your Villains is KO'd, deal 1 damage to your opponent for each of your active Villains.

    Cheetah: Cursed Archaeologist
    When Cheetah attacks, she deals 1 damage to the defending player.
    SCENARIO:

    The player has Human Torch and Black Manta active, fields two Cheetah dice (triggering Human Torch twice), and attacks with both (triggering each Cheetah). The opponent subsequently blocks and knocks out both Cheetah dice (triggering Black Manta twice). This sequence would typically deal 6 damage to the opponent. How much damage does the opponent take if he or she has Captain America active, i.e., how should Captain America's ability be interpreted?

    1. Prevent all but 1 damage dealt by all actions or character abilities combined. E.g., the combined direct damage dealt by the four opposing character abilities is reduced from 6 to 1.

    2. Prevent all but 1 damage from each instance of all actions or character abilities. E.g., the damage dealt by each action or ability is individually reduced to 1, resulting in no change and 6 damage to the player.

    3. Prevent all but 1 damage from each action or character ability no matter how many times it/they are used. E.g., The damage from Human Torch's and Black Manta's abilities is individually reduced from 2 to 1. Cheetah counts as two character dice each dealing 1 direct damage, so no change. The opponent takes 4 damage.

    4. Same as above but Cheetah's ability is also reduced from 2 to 1. The opponent takes 3 damage.

    5. Something else?

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I believe it's 2
    Yeah, that's where I'm leaning as well but I wonder why, if that was the intent, they didn't simply word it, "While active, prevent all but 1 damage from each action or character ability."

    If 2 is the case, that would make the card largely useless except against Overcrush.

  5. #5
    It's useless against Overcrush.

    Overcrush does not deal ability damage, it changes the way combat damage is assigned.

  6. #6
    Not Useless, Jocasta, Nova, Obelisk, (Phoenix Jeannie too?). There are many times when you recieve much damage. This helping you to keep your lifepoints a little bit longer than the enemy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    It's useless against Overcrush. Overcrush does not deal ability damage, it changes the way combat damage is assigned.
    Can you provide a ruling that establishes this? I haven't been able to find anything as I've been making my way through all the posts there for the wiki. I've searched using terms: overcrush, modifies, damage, source.

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Stack15 View Post
    This card does put any possible power bolt strategy out of business. However it also seems like this won't be the most popular captain America played.
    Well that depends, Uncommon Loki can remove the ability for one turn, plus prismatic spray is a simple counter to this card. If you include other removal into the team so not only bolt but bolt centric you have Millennium Puzzle and Solomon Grundy. Also he is a five cost and that is a lot for just defense. with only 8 cards it is hard to place him into a team, unless that is an Avengers patch team.

  11. #11
    The answer is number 2. Each action and step of the scenario you described does 1 damage each and Captain America is tested against each one separately. If you had a Firestorm in the mix, than his damage would have been reduced to one instead of 2. Any Breath Weapon 2 or 3s would be reduced to 1 as well for a different example.

    This particular combo ruins the Paladins global as well.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    Can you provide a ruling that establishes this? I haven't been able to find anything as I've been making my way through all the posts there for the wiki. I've searched using terms: overcrush, modifies, damage, source.
    While it doesn't explicitly say that it's due to combat damage, it isn't ability damage.

    No, Magic Helmet does not prevent the application of damage to a player due to Overcrush. This is because the Overcrush ability affects the player, not the character with Magic Helmet equipped.
    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...ilit=Overcrush

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scenttii View Post
    While it doesn't explicitly say that it's due to combat damage, it isn't ability damage.

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...ilit=Overcrush
    Thanks for the response. This ruling may imply something subtle that I'm missing but they aren't drawing a distinction here between combat and ability damage. Instead, they're saying Magic Helmet ("This equipped character cannot be affected by your opponent's action dice or character abilities.") can't prevent Overcrush because Overcrush applies damage to the player not the character. In fact, they call Overcrush an "ability".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    In fact, they call Overcrush an "ability".
    Could be because Overcrush is an ability? But it's an ability that redirects combat damage, not one that causes ability (non-combat) damage.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    Can you provide a ruling that establishes this? I haven't been able to find anything as I've been making my way through all the posts there for the wiki. I've searched using terms: overcrush, modifies, damage, source.
    Yes:

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=5936&p=16153

    Here, there is a single game effect (the attacking Martian Manhunter’s attack damage) which resolves simultaneously.
    (emphasis mine)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Consider Silver Surfer: Silverado: "At the start of the attack step, if your opponent has more life than you, Silver Surfer gets +2A and +2D."

    Silver Surfer meets the condition for his ability, attacks, and goes unblocked. Does Captain America reduce the additional +2A taken as direct damage to 1? This bonus is clearly from the Silver Surfer's ability and would be part of a single effect (9 total damage dealt to opponent at level 2).

  17. #17
    No. Because the +2A is not direct damage. It's changing Silver Surfer's stats. So the +2 damage is part of the combat damage he deals.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    No. Because the +2A is not direct damage. It's changing Silver Surfer's stats. So the +2 damage is part of the combat damage he deals.
    This is part of a broader issue that's murky for me. Captain America's ability text says, "prevent all but 1 damage to you from any action or character abilities." There is no indication that this must be "direct damage". Wizkids uses "combat damage" to describe damage dealt during that particular phase but I can't find a single reference to "direct damage" in a rulebook or forum ruling.

    If this is how we're to interpret Captain America, then arguably it can't even reduce the damage dealt to the player by Jocasta who is merely redirecting combat damage of which her ability isn't even the ultimate source ("The first time each turn Jocasta would be dealt damage, instead deal that damage to your opponent."). Assuming you're correct, what is the point of Captain America's ability? Was it really intended to merely counter cards like Nova and Obelisk, two of the few that deal more than 1 damage directly to the opponent?

  19. #19
    Yes, he counters Gobby pretty well, and I hear that guy is WORLD CLASS.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Yes, he counters Gobby pretty well, and I hear that guy is WORLD CLASS.
    That's a good point!

    Still, there's a lot of assumptions from which others are delineating between the sources and types of damage and I'm not finding a precedent from Wizkids that makes sense of these.

  21. #21
    Cap's ability says he stops damage from an action ability or character ability. Combat damage is neither an action ability or character ability. Yes is stops damage, but only damage from those sources. Combat damage is clearly defined in the rule book as a sub set of damage, and specifically details that it is the damage dealt by the character's stats during attacking or blocking.

    Anything thing else, is generated by some form of ability. Some abilities however, don't generate damage but simply redirect that damage. Jocasta is a redirection. When you redirect, the source doesn't change, and neither does the type of damage. Thus, Jocasta blocking an attacker, takes combat damage, since that is the type of damage, and redirects said combat damage to your opponent. This circumvents Cap's ability because of the nature of the damage incoming.

    Another way to look at this is, "when Jocasta blocks a character, that character is considered to be attacking your opponent instead of Jocasta." This would not be an ability that Cap's ability would reduce, and is effectively resolving the same way. There are of course other subtleties to this interaction, but this example highlighted the difference.

  22. #22
    Another way of looking at the Surfer example would be that it works this way:

    -Enter Attack step
    -Surfer's ability activates
    -Surfer gets +2/+2
    -Surfer's ability has resolved, is no longer active
    -Surfer attacks and deals damage

    The damage isn't coming from his ability since the ability already came and went, it's simply coming from his now beefier stats.



    Unrelatedly, this digression has me wondering if, in our own local spaces, we should be handling interactions based on how we think WK would actually rule something. Because I would bet dollars to donuts that, if they were to rule on Jocasta (god willing), that they would say Cap would reduce combat damage that she redirects. So if one were to expect that, should they then rule that way locally, or should they rule based on however the card and current rules allow irrespective of potential WK rulings?

    I think I'm going to put up a comprehensive Patterned After Janet question later tonight...

  23. #23
    *In a recent game, I only had 1 fielded Sidekick and Cap America, SS, and my opponent had Hulk:GG fielded. In his main phase, before he attacked, he used Magic Missile on his Hulk, and as a result, my Sidekick was KO'd. Then he used the Relentless global to make sure my Cap American couldn't block. He then attacked me with Hulk, and I took 8 damage.

    Now, because Hulk's ability to damage and KO my Sidekick resulted in me taking 8 damage, Captain America can reduce this to 1, right?

    *NO, it can't. Captain America only reduces the stuff that says things similar to "Deal X damage to your opponent". No matter what convoluted scenario you use, if the ability doesn't say that, then Cap won't work.

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