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Thread: Baron Zemo Rare Logic Checks

  1. #1

    Baron Zemo Rare Logic Checks

    Ok, so This guy is AMAZING! but I had a few logic issues with how his ability resolves in interaction with several other dice.

    For Reference:
    Baron Zemo: Each time you use an action die, you may pay 1 to put it into your Prep Area instead of your Used Pile.

    Cerebro: Place Cerebro on a die's card. It remains there until you or a card effect removes it (it is still in the field). At the start of your turn, you may move Cerebro to your used pile to search your bag for a die from that card and roll it.
    First up:

    Baron Zemo can pay 1 at the point that you use the die. We know from many a rules forum reference that this is also the moment when Continuous dice are placed in the field. The question becomes, if I pay the 1 for Zemo's ability, does that alter the text of the card for it's duration in the field, so that when it DOES go to the used pile, it INSTEAD goes to the Prep?

    My decision is yes, for a few reasons. First, Zemo's ability doesn't specifically say when to put the die in the Prep, it simply says "instead". One could assume that that means immediately, but I don't actually read that from the card. Then, the question becomes, does Zemo's effect end at end of turn. I again say no, because you are paying the cost when you are using the die. The die has been used, it is now "written" to go to the prep area, as if it were a totally different effect than the one originally placed on the card. Also, the "unless otherwise stated is still part of the effect. Zemo altered the effect of the action die itself, he didn't create a new effect himself.

    Next up:

    Cerebro says "at the beginning of your turn." When is that and how does this ability resolve? If it is before my clear and draw step, the first thing I'm going to do, before I could even spend or field the die from Cerebro, is to move everything in my reserve to the Used. If it is after the Clear step, would I simply be putting the die in my Draw and then Rolling it for the turn? Thus I could Reroll it? Is it really at the beginning of my Main Step?

    My opinion is that I would actually draw my 4 dice for the turn, then I can trigger Cerebro to search and add a die to my roll. The reason I came to this conclusion is that, anything before the Clear step is useless, and the next paragraph after that (so as early in the turn as the effect could be used without being useless) is the following:
    Draw four dice from your bag. If your bag has fewer than four dice,
    draw all of them, then place all the dice from your Used Pile into the
    bag, shake the bag well, and continue drawing until you have drawn
    four dice in total. Sometimes, cards or abilities will make you draw
    more dice: draw those additional dice now.
    Place all dice drawn into
    your Prep Area.
    Now, for the REAL hard one:

    If I use Zemo to pay 1 for Cerebro, when Cerebro is set to go to the used pile, it instead goes to your Prep Area. That is the same place all of your drawn dice just went. You must resolve the Cerebro effect wholly before moving onto the Roll and Reroll step, but the Cerebro effect also says "roll it". Is Cerebro just a hold over from old language before they used the term "add it to your roll"? When they say "roll it" do they mean roll it as part of your roll, or roll it separately?

    I again believe that the intent is to add it to your roll. For the simple fact that Cerebro's effect states "at the beginning of your turn, and until the end of your roll and reroll step nothing is actually in your reserve pool.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    I disagree with your interpretation.

    Zemo says "Each time you use an action die, you may pay 1..." which definitely reads to me that you pay the 1 when you use the action die, which is moving it from the reserve pool, to the location the die tells you to, or to the Used Pile, if it doesn't name a location.

    The second half says "to put it into your Prep Area instead of your Used Pile." which reads as stopping the die from moving to used, and redirect it to prep. For this to happen, it needs to be moving to Used in the first place. If it isn't, then this second half won't do anything.

    It doesn't say "... the next time this die would be placed into Used, instead place it into Prep", which would be "future proofing" it, if it meant to have more lasting effects.

    In effect, a more lengthy wording of his ability would be:
    "As you use an action die, if it is being placed into the Used Pile, you may pay 1 to have it moved to the Prep Area instead."

  3. #3
    This is a fair way to interperate this. I obviously disagree, but don't think there is and evidence to conclude definitively one way or the other.

  4. #4
    I certainly agree with crambaza. I think its more likely that Baron's ability would simply not work with specific actions as to not break them. It makes damage dealing and ramping actions much better but does nothing for actions like imprisoned, cerebro, millennium puzzle, ring of magnetism and equipments. Although he makes prismatic spray better

  5. #5
    I feel like I would side with Crambaza if I had to rule on this while running a local tournament, but there is one thing we can use to held Shadowmeld`s point here, because I think he didn`t choose the best example. We know that cerebro, as a non-basic action die is still considered to be in the field, or continuous, like millenium puzzle. When you roll millenium puzzle, it goes into your field and stays there until used.

    Edit: I knew I was forgetting something. Thanks PK
    Last edited by Osprey; 07-21-2015 at 06:40 PM.

  6. #6
    I believe it was ruled at Nationals or Worlds that in light of Jinzo, the point at which the die was "used" was when it moved from the Reserve Pool to the Field.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Spug View Post
    I assume that Zemo needs to be active before his ability can be used? I know it's too much to expect consistency in the wording of these cards but character text will usually say "when active" or similar.
    Nothing inconsistent about it, all abilities assume the character is fielded/active unless the card text specifies otherwise.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    Nothing inconsistent about it, all abilities assume the character is fielded/active unless the card text specifies otherwise.
    This is not entirely true...but mostly true.

    There is a resent ruling for the Super Rare Thanos that states it does not require to be active:
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...11a28453c666be

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fun4willis View Post
    This is not entirely true...but mostly true.

    There is a resent ruling for the Super Rare Thanos that states it does not require to be active:
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...11a28453c666be
    True, there are a couple of exceptions.

  11. #11
    I agree with Crambaza.

    As all cards with text always assume they need to be active otherwise specifically stated on the card text.
    Last edited by VastSpartan; 07-31-2015 at 10:13 PM.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zauriel View Post
    So what happens with Mjolnir?
    Do you have the chance to pay 1, before damage is dealt, or is damage dealt to all villains, including Zemo, and he's KO'd before you can pay 1?
    Since the Mjolnir effect would resolve completely, I don't think you'd have a chance to use Zemo's ability before he is KO'd.

  14. #14

  15. #15
    But you can't interrupt the one ability with another ability. The Mjolnir ability would need to completely resolve before you'd have the opportunity to use Zemo's ability.

  16. #16
    Well actually the way he is written he doesn't do anything according to the new rules for playing actions save for a few special cases. Now when you play an action it goes to the out of play area where nothing can happen to that die so once you use the action and try to trigger Zemos special there is no legal target for his ability

    Obviously this was not his intention but until we get a clarification on him he doesn't actually work

    Relevant sections from the rule book:

    Playing Actions
    You may use the action faces on your action dice during your Main Step. To do so, apply the effect and then move the action die from your Reserve Pool to Out of Play (it will go to your Used Pile at the end of the turn). It costs no energy to use an action die.

    Out of Play: Nothing can happen to dice here. Energy spent during your turn goes here, so do Action Dice you use during your turn or unblocked characters.
    Last edited by Studebakerhawk; 08-04-2015 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Correction

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Studebakerhawk View Post
    Well actually the way he is written he doesn't do anything according to the new rules for playing actions save for a few special cases. Now when you play an action it goes to the out of play area where nothing can happen to that die so once you use the action and try to trigger Zemos special there is no legal target for his ability
    I was re-reading the rules and noticed this discrepancy, too. I've asked all of my questions on the rules forum. Hopefully some clarity is forthcoming!

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Studebakerhawk View Post
    Well actually the way he is written he doesn't do anything according to the new rules for playing actions save for a few special cases. Now when you play an action it goes to the out of play area where nothing can happen to that die so once you use the action and try to trigger Zemos special there is no legal target for his ability
    Except you trigger his ability when you use the action, not after.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Studebakerhawk View Post
    Well actually the way he is written he doesn't do anything according to the new rules for playing actions save for a few special cases. Now when you play an action it goes to the out of play area where nothing can happen to that die so once you use the action and try to trigger Zemos special there is no legal target for his ability

    Obviously this was not his intention but until we get a clarification on him he doesn't actually work

    Relevant sections from the rule book:

    Playing Actions
    You may use the action faces on your action dice during your Main Step. To do so, apply the effect and then move the action die from your Reserve Pool to Out of Play (it will go to your Used Pile at the end of the turn). It costs no energy to use an action die.

    Out of Play: Nothing can happen to dice here. Energy spent during your turn goes here, so do Action Dice you use during your turn or unblocked characters.
    Acording to the Maria Hill ruling "Going to the used" is synonymous with "going out of play with a final destination of the used pile."

  20. #20
    Technically as stated earlier in this thread you can't interrupt an action with another action so in order to use Zemos ability it would have to be after all resolutions of the action die you are using which includes placing it in the out of play area. This mainly only has an affect on the argument of if his power is a future proof ability but it seems like the consensus is that his power isn't so if it isn't then his power actually doesn't do anything. Even still if you play him as written he is literally a broken card (save for just a few actions that directly state that they go to the used pile). I'm sure they will errata his text to work as we all think he's intended to but until then I guess it's up to the local judge to determine how he interacts.

  21. #21

  22. #22
    No, attacking and going unblocked, instance #1 of way that it works, sends a character out of play.

    The instances that don't work, don't work because Maria Hill is not a character when the "goes to used" aspect is triggered.

  23. #23

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Studebakerhawk View Post
    Technically as stated earlier in this thread you can't interrupt an action with another action so in order to use Zemos ability it would have to be after all resolutions of the action die you are using which includes placing it in the out of play area.
    Triggering and resolving and ability are two different things.

    This is illustrated in the following ruling:

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...&t=1609&p=4597

    This ruling confused the hell out of me, and many others, at the time, but the only way it can work is for Hulk's ability to trigger during the assign damage effect, and then resolve before he is knocked out.

    This interpretation is backed up by their followup post in which they say:

    The ability triggers when the damage is applied to the hulk, at that point it takes 5 damage but at the same time gains 2 or 3 defense and 2 or 3 attack.

  25. #25
    My question was kind of hinted at, but not addressed directly.

    How does Zemo interact with Puzzle? The Puzzle is treated like a Global, unlike Cerebo (depending on whether or not it's Continuous action) that can only be used at a very specific time.

    EDIT: The Millennium Puzzle's errata card reads:

    You may move this die to your Used Pile to send one opposing monster to the Used Pile. (You may use this ability when you may play a Global Ability. This die stays fielded until used.)
    Zemo reads "use". Since he doesn't read "play", I read his ability as Reactive and it thus activates (when paid for) when you Use an action. I could be mistaken, but Wizkids has gotten better about using Play vs Use (as Play would mean moving a Die from the Reserve to a different zone). I interpret Use as when I move an action die from any zone into Used. I think this logic applies to Cerebo as well, so Zemo's ability would react to you moving Cerebo to your Used from the card (which is considered the Field as stated in Cerebo's text).

    Thus I think that Zemo's ability would react (and I would have an opportunity to pay [1 generic]) once I move Puzzle from the Field to my Used. After paying to activate Zemo's ability, Puzzle goes to my Prep instead. This occurs at any time I can play a Global, as that's how Continuous die work. Note: I don't know if Continuous was added to Cerbo's text or not.

    WRT OP's logic checks:

    So I think you'd pay [1 generic] when you move ("Use") Cerebo from the card to your Used, and thus not when you Play Cerebo from your Reserve.

    I see 2 ways to interpret:

    1.
    I read "beginning of your turn" as before your clear and draw step.

    So Cerebo gets Used (adding an additional die to your Draw step), you pay [1 generic] to move it to your Prep, you Clear your Reserve, then you Draw your dice for the turn. So in this case yes, Cerebo would be added to your Prep and rolled with your (in this example) 5 drawn dice. This seems the proper logic, as if I use a Basic Action die, it will be rolled on the next turn (after I pay and activate Zemo's ability).
    2.
    You may pay [1 generic] when you Use Cerebo during your Clear and Draw step, but you will never be able to have any energy to pay for Zemo's activated ability during this time. Thus Cerebo and Zemo can't be used together.

    Obviously this is my interpretation, and as I've never been a judge at an event, this could all be mistaken!
    Last edited by Chum Bucket; 08-12-2015 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Re-reading thread answered some questions, grammar and capitalization)

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