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Thread: Black widow/ ultron global

  1. #1

    Black widow/ ultron global

    Relevant cards: AoU #3 Black widow - cold warrior
    Black widow can only be blocked by sidekicks.

    &

    AoU #20 Ultron - Peacekeeper gone wrong
    When ultron is blocked capture all blocking character dice (return them at the end of the turn).
    Global: pay 2f to force an opposing character to block a character die of your choice this turn.

    I have widow, sidekick, and hawkeye in the field. Opponent has 2 hulk in the field. I pay 2f to force the opponent's hulk to block my widow. what happens?

  2. #2
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    Off the cuff, I'd say it fizzles and Widow's ability trumps the global.

  3. #3
    Widow basically says "can't be blocked by Hulk" and Can't trumps Can.

  4. #4
    I agree with Count von Homash. BW ability is more of a "cannot be blocked by anything except Sidekicks", and Can't trumps Must.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    Off the cuff, I'd say it fizzles and Widow's ability trumps the global.
    Would the Hulk lose the ability to block someone else, or would Hulk be able to block as normal in the attacky/blocky phase?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Widow basically says "can't be blocked by Hulk" and Can't trumps Can.
    My only thing about this is that, while she basically says "cannot", she doesn't say "cannot". That's enough of a difference for WK to not apply that guideline.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OddballNarwhal View Post
    Would the Hulk lose the ability to block someone else, or would Hulk be able to block as normal in the attacky/blocky phase?
    I was hoping to use it as blocker removal. Technically, attackers are assigned as sidekick, hawkeye, widow. Blockers are assigned: hulk blocks sk and hulk blocks hawkeye. Global is used to move hulk to block widow. Hulk isn't a sidekick, so he can't block widow. Sk and widow get through, adding 2 hulk out burst sides for 5 dmg (and a win as the case may be!)
    Last edited by zigjar; 07-20-2015 at 10:29 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by zigjar View Post
    I was hoping to use it as blocker removal. Technically, attackers are assigned as sidekick, hawkeye, widow. Blockers are assigned: hulk blocks sk and hulk blocks hawkeye. Global is used to move hulk to block widow. Hulk isn't a sidekick, so he can't block widow. Sk and widow get through, adding 2 hulk out burst sides for 5 dmg (and a win as the case may be!)
    Can't move blockers to different characters after they are assigned, sorry. At least not with that ability.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Yes, but that Global is one that is only useful in the Main Step. Once Blockers have been assigned, that Global does nothing.

  11. #11
    Alright, noted. I'm still pretty new to the game, so still learning smaller rules like this. So, hypothetically, if the Hulk had been assigned to widow during the main step, how do you think the ruling would go? As I understand what's been said so far, Either the global fizzles and does nothing because of the contradictory card text, or widow would go through. I don't feel like we have settled on an answer yet.

  12. #12
    You do have the timing of the Attack Step correct, so good for that!

    The relevant ruling is this question from the FAQ:
    Please explain "target character must attack" effects.

    A: “Target character must attack” effects— such as the global abilities on Mr. Fantastic, Brilliant Scientist, and Phoenix, Ms. Psyche,— can be paid with their respective energy during the Main Step of your opponent’s turn to force a single target character die to attack this turn. For example, during an opponent’s Main Step, a player could use Mr. Fantastic, Brilliant Scientist’s global ability by paying one mask energy and choosing an opposing player’s active character die. That character would be forced to attack during that player’s attack step. Players can activate “target character must attack” effects during the Attack Step, but since attackers have already been assigned (during the Assign Attackers phase of the Attack Step) the opportunity for those characters to attack has already passed and the net result would be paying for an effect, choosing a target, and the effect of the Global Ability would do nothing.
    Getting back to the question, if you had paid it during the Main Step, my interpretation would be that the Global would fizzle.

  13. #13

  14. #14

  15. #15
    That's referring to abilities like on the Jocasta Super-Rare, or Globals like Storm: Weather-Witch. Nothing in this ability is redirecting.

    I believe you could pay the , "force" Hulk to block Widow (during the Main Step). During the Attack Step you assign all 3 to attack. In the Declare Blockers step, Hulk attempts to block Widow like the Global forced him to. He is unable to (due to BW ability trumping Global). He is then free to be assigned to block anyone.

  16. #16

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by zigjar View Post
    Thanks for the responses. One final question relating to this discussion. The symbol on the card in the global seems to be a double fist side, presumably from a character die. Can I pay 2 single fist energy from 2 sidekick dice for this global?
    Yes, the double fist symbol is just saving space on the card.

  18. #18
    To play (Dare)Devil's Advocate here, why wouldn't the interaction be like Lord of D/Ring of Magnetism? If it were, then the Hulk die (or dice) that the Global was used on wouldn't be able to block anything. Is it because it's not a "target" ability, like actions are?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    I believe you could pay the , "force" Hulk to block Widow (during the Main Step). During the Attack Step you assign all 3 to attack. In the Declare Blockers step, Hulk attempts to block Widow like the Global forced him to. He is unable to (due to BW ability trumping Global).
    I agree with everything up to this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    He is then free to be assigned to block anyone.
    I don't agree with this.

    Hulk is not capable of blocking two characters.

    He must block Black Widow.

    Black Widow says "oh no you don't".

    That doesn't remove the condition on Hulk that he must block Black Widow.

    It just prevents the block from happening.

  20. #20
    I can see that point. So then you basically pay to make him unable to block this turn.

  21. #21

  22. #22
    Given that it was ruled at Worlds that

    combined with

    doesn't make your entire board completely unblockable, I'd say that it fizzles.

    It's ultimately the same concept:

    a.) Ring forces everything to block Angel (essentially), except
    b.) Angel cannot be blocked. Since my opponent's characters must block Angel, and he can't be blocked,
    c.) they're free to block other things as normal.

    a.) Global forces Hulk to block Widow, except
    b.) Widow cannot be blocked, except by sidekicks. Since my opponent's Hulk must block Widow, and she can't be blocked by Hulk,
    c.) Hulk is free to block other things as normal.

  23. #23

  24. #24
    I think what is making our heads spinning about this, is the Sentence about redirecting / targeting in the Rulebook... .

    And i would see it like this.

    Yes,i can change the target of something, even if it is illegal (action die, abilitie, forced die to do something) but only because i say, Mr. X must block Mr. Y , but Mr. Y says no, doesn't mean i overwrite that Mr. X is a Dinosaur who can eat and block vegetable Dinosaurs... .

    Sure i can put Mr. X in a bathtube and force him to swim, but he cannot because of his small arms.

    What i mean is, i can put the AA Magnetism Ring on Hulk Jade Giant and he cannot Knockout himself because he is not opposing(or one of his friends) but that doenst mean he is not trying to do "HIS" Skills.
    So i go from point of view from the Victim/Person of interest.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    I think what is making our heads spinning about this, is the Sentence about redirecting / targeting in the Rulebook... .

    And i would see it like this.

    Yes,i can change the target of something, even if it is illegal (action die, abilitie, forced die to do something) but only because i say, Mr. X must block Mr. Y , but Mr. Y says no, doesn't mean i overwrite that Mr. X is a Dinosaur who can eat and block vegetable Dinosaurs... .

    Sure i can put Mr. X in a bathtube and force him to swim, but he cannot because of his small arms.

    What i mean is, i can put the AA Magnetism Ring on Hulk Jade Giant and he cannot Knockout himself because he is not opposing(or one of his friends) but that doenst mean he is not trying to do "HIS" Skills.
    So i go from point of view from the Victim/Person of interest.
    This is one of the most confusing things I've ever read...

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