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Thread: Jocasta - Patterned after Janet

  1. #1

    Jocasta - Patterned after Janet

    I posted this question on Reddit and received a ton of good input on how this should be resolved, but I still don't have a clear understanding. Can someone please help?

    Playing a game with 2 Jocasta dice in the field with my opponent attacking with 2 Rocket Raccoons, 2 Iron Man and a couple of side kicks. I block the rocket raccoons with both Jocasta since Rocket was doing 4 +2A for attacking with someone. So opponent immediately takes 12 damage from his 3 health and is KO'd. With the unblocked Iron Man and side kicks I took 8 damage from my 7 health and was KO'd. Who wins the game with simultaneous KO's?

    http://redd.it/3dybpq

    Thanks

  2. #2

  3. #3
    If I'm reading it correctly, your opponent wins as the active player. He chooses the order in which abilities and such resolve. He chooses to resolve Iron Man and Sidekick's combat damage before Rocket's, so you die before Jocasta's ability would kick in.

  4. #4
    pk2317 is correct, active player decides, also in timing issues the active player takes precedence and goes first.
    Or
    Jocasta would return the damage, but their leader is already dead.

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by zigjar View Post
    AoU rulebook p 10: assign damage - both players assign damage. Damage occurs simultaneously. (In the rare cases where it is relevant, the attacking player assigns first, although damage still RESOLVES simultaneously. )

    So it is a tie by the book.
    Thanks. I knew this was the answer. But I'm at work right now and couldn't remember the source. Still, a tie is better than a loss in a best of 3.

  7. #7
    Relevant rules forum post: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=1590

    Unless we are going to say that Jocasta resolves in a different manner than Genetic Expert, the attacking player would win in the above scenario.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    Relevant rules forum post: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=1590

    Unless we are going to say that Jocasta resolves in a different manner than Genetic Expert, the attacking player would win in the above scenario.
    I think that's according to the old rulebook. Compare AvX rulebook (pg 21 referenced in your link) and AoU rulebook (pg 10 referenced above)

  10. #10
    The AVX Rulebook has the same text on page 8, verbatim, as the AoU excerpt.

  11. #11
    Simultaneous 0 life works in the active player's favor I believe. Generally you want to avoid ties.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    Relevant rules forum post: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=1590

    Unless we are going to say that Jocasta resolves in a different manner than Genetic Expert, the attacking player would win in the above scenario.
    I believe Jocasta DOES resolve in a different manner than Genetic Expert. Her ability reesolves before damage is dealt, so that the damage is redirected. Where as a KO ability resolves AFTER combat damage is dealt. Basically, Jocasta's ability resolves at the same speed as Overcrush, as it is a redirection of damage, not an ability that is triggered as a result of something that happens after damage is dealt (when KOed triggers).

    Another way to look at it, is Jocasta's ability changes where the damage goes, it doesn't actually trigger. There is no order to resolve, when damage is applied it goes to the opponent.

    Simultaneous 0 life works in the active player's favor I believe. Generally you want to avoid ties.
    Simultaneous from the same source creates a tie, as per the rulebook pg 11.

    Under Winning: "If both players would reach zero at the same time, the game ends in a tie."

    Also on page 11 is this phrase:
    "Unblocked characters are moved Out of Play after dealing damage, before any other effects resolve other than those that would replace damage."

    This is just an example of how damage replacement effects take precedence over other game aspects.

  14. #14
    Tie.

    All combat damage is simultaneous.

    And redirects don't change the source or nature of the effect.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Another way to look at it, is Jocasta's ability changes where the damage goes, it doesn't actually trigger. There is no order to resolve, when damage is applied it goes to the opponent.
    It's certainly reasonable to interpret this way, and I think it would make sense for them to come down as such, but there's really no reason to think with any other ruling they've made so far that it actually works differently than a triggered ability. I think until WK makes some kind of ruling to the contrary, for any ability out there, we have to work under the assumption that Jocasta is triggered and not passively redirecting damage.

  16. #16
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    I don't want to derail this conversation, but I have a question which seems germane to the conversation. Does the Beast ruling indicate that ko effects are simultaneous to combat damage? It must or the active player would lose in that scenario. If that's the case, any ko (or upon taking damage) life gain effect would change the outcome. It's as if all that matters is what the result is after the dust settles. I am curious what prompted the rule change regarding ties. It seems like a move in the wrong direction.


    edit: the comment above represents the original ruling in a misinterpreted fashion as @Shadowmeld points out
    Last edited by Jthomash2; 07-23-2015 at 03:31 PM.

  17. #17
    I think you got the Active player and the narrating player confused in that situation JT. The person who has the beasts is not the active player. He is taking 4 unblocked damage, and while the Beasts are KOed simultaneously, that portion isn't even dealt with because the Narrating player is dead.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    I think you got the Active player and the narrating player confused ... because the Narrating player is dead.
    Incredible that he could even share here under those circumstances!

  19. #19
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    Location
    Akron, OH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    I think you got the Active player and the narrating player confused in that situation JT. The person who has the beasts is not the active player. He is taking 4 unblocked damage, and while the Beasts are KOed simultaneously, that portion isn't even dealt with because the Narrating player is dead.
    My goodness. Sometimes I just need to put it on the table and look at it before I start asking questions.

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