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Thread: Loki Laufeyson

  1. #1

    Loki Laufeyson

    While Loki is active, once per turn you may pay [1 Bolt] to deal 1 damage to a character die. That character die loses all of its abilities until end of turn. You may use this ability whenever you could use a Global Ability.

    vs SR Jocasta and Hulk (Jade Giant)(Green Goliath)

    Will Loki trigger Jocasta and Hulk's Ability?

  2. #2
    I've seen a few different debates on this in various places, so you definitely aren't the only one who has had issues with this card.

    My opinion would be that Loki had to completely finish his effect before the game proceeds into any subsequent effects. So, Loki does his 1 damage, and also zaps away the opposing die's abilities before either Jacosta or Hulk have a chance to trigger.

  3. #3
    My feeling is that though Loki's ability must complete resolving before anything else can happen, abilities such as Hulk's or Jocasta's trigger when the damage is dealt, and, as Loki deals damage first, at the time the damage is dealt those abilities are intact, so they do trigger and will fully resolve, but only after the remainder of Loki's ability resolves.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    My feeling is that though Loki's ability must complete resolving before anything else can happen, abilities such as Hulk's or Jocasta's trigger when the damage is dealt, and, as Loki deals damage first, at the time the damage is dealt those abilities are intact, so they do trigger and will fully resolve, but only after the remainder of Loki's ability resolves.
    I'm going to say I don't think that's the intent of the card. Everything on the card happens at once. I haven't read anything about pausing between sentences or cards remembering triggers for when they've been damaged after losing their text.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
    I'm going to say I don't think that's the intent of the card. Everything on the card happens at once. I haven't read anything about pausing between sentences or cards remembering triggers for when they've been damaged after losing their text.
    It's not about pausing between sentences.

    There is precedence, in the rulings on the rules forum, for abilities, once triggered, resolving fully, regardless of what subsequently happens to the character with the ability.

    I also think that there is an implied conditional and that the character only loses their abilities if they are actually damaged. So, Jocasta, if it would be the first time she would be damaged that turn, wouldn't even lose hers at all.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    That said, I could be wrong.

    I frequently am.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    That said, I could be wrong.

    I frequently am.
    I appreciate your confidence. And your candor.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    It's not about pausing between sentences.

    There is precedence, in the rulings on the rules forum, for abilities, once triggered, resolving fully, regardless of what subsequently happens to the character with the ability.

    I also think that there is an implied conditional and that the character only loses their abilities if they are actually damaged. So, Jocasta, if it would be the first time she would be damaged that turn, wouldn't even lose hers at all.
    Hmmm...I think we are going to debate this one, and I'll use Marvel Girl Humanity as precidence. Her card says "When attacked, you may spin up Marvel Girl. If you do, gain 2 life". This is pretty clearly worded this way to not allow a life gain if your Marvel Girl die is already at level 3.

    Loki does not have an "if you do" condition. It is simply targeting a character.

    I believe the 1 damage is just meant to give the ability a thematic feel..."I zapped you with some energy rays and sucked away all your powers...muwa-ha-ha!"...but I do not beleive doing the damage is a condition to trigger the rest of the ability, or it would have been worded like Marvel Girl. Just my opinion though...I've learned not to be too definitive in these forums...ya never know...

    Also...I still think he would work against Jocosta. It feels that wizkids is getting a little smarter with each set the release, and including and answer within set to some of the cards they know will very powerful. Loki may have been one such card designed specifically to counter against Jocosta...maybe...I could also be totally wrong here

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    My feeling is that though Loki's ability must complete resolving before anything else can happen, abilities such as Hulk's or Jocasta's trigger when the damage is dealt, and, as Loki deals damage first, at the time the damage is dealt those abilities are intact, so they do trigger and will fully resolve, but only after the remainder of Loki's ability resolves.
    This sounds like your describing mtg's "the stack". Which thankfully dice masters doesn't have!
    I think that the when damaged abilities of jocasta and hulk do resolve after loki's, but since their card text has been wiped, there's no longer anything to say what happens.

    If they did trigger and resolve, then that would be using the stack...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post

    There is precedence, in the rulings on the rules forum, for abilities, once triggered, resolving fully, regardless of what subsequently happens to the character with the ability.
    I assume your referring to Constantine and Deadpool?
    Or maybe not, because that just means that if Loki where to be removed from field, his ability would still stay on the targeted character.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatman View Post
    Hmmm...I think we are going to debate this one, and I'll use Marvel Girl Humanity as precidence. Her card says "When attacked, you may spin up Marvel Girl. If you do, gain 2 life". This is pretty clearly worded this way to not allow a life gain if your Marvel Girl die is already at level 3.
    There are other reasons to choose not to spin up Marvel Girl. Vibe comes to mind. Anyway, I don't think her "if you do" wording applies here since her ability is optional and Loki's is deliberate to use. Or I might be totally missing your point.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    I assume your referring to Constantine and Deadpool?
    Or maybe not, because that just means that if Loki where to be removed from field, his ability would still stay on the targeted character.
    No, I'm thinking of the "If I damage Green Goliath enough to KO him, does ability still trigger?" ruling.

    And the ruling is that yes, he does.

  14. #14
    Oh ok.
    Yes the requirement for his trigger was met, same for being damaged by Loki. The difference is that there is no instructions to tell you what to do...

    This is essentially the same discussion we had about beholder....

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    This sounds like your describing mtg's "the stack". Which thankfully dice masters doesn't have!
    I think that the when damaged abilities of jocasta and hulk do resolve after loki's, but since their card text has been wiped, there's no longer anything to say what happens.

    If they did trigger and resolve, then that would be using the stack...
    Correct, Dice Masters doesn't have a stack.

    But it has something similar.

    However it's more like a pool of chained effects.

    A number of rulings on the rules forum point to the idea that once the trigger for an effect is met then that effect will resolve.

    Loki could only prevent Hulk from triggering if the text clearing effect occurred before the damage effect.

    OH! Something has just occurred to me:

    Perhaps they are separate but simultaneous effects!

    So, the active player gets to choose which happens first!

  16. #16
    It's also a fairly significant assumption to make that Hulk or Jocasta can interrupt a self contained ability like Loki's in the first place.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    It's also a fairly significant assumption to make that Hulk or Jocasta can interrupt a self contained ability like Loki's in the first place.
    That's my point. It's 2 things, but 1 ability needing to be fully resolved before any other triggers.
    (Same thing with beholder...)

    (I'm sticking to my guns, Scott)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    It's also a fairly significant assumption to make that Hulk or Jocasta can interrupt a self contained ability like Loki's in the first place.
    I am not arguing that either Hulk or Jocasta do interrupt Loki.

    I am arguing that an ability that triggers off a game effect is initiated at the point the game effect occurs and that it then resolves fully, after the game effect that caused the triggering has completely resolved.

    Let us examine a different example of the same principle:

    I only have a Level 1 Green Goliath fielded.

    You have two Level 1 Tsarinas.

    It is your attack step and you assign both Tsarinas to attack.

    How much damage do I take from the Tsarinas' abilities?

  19. #19
    The point I could argue is that in the Hulk/Tsarina situation, they still have their card text/abilities. There has been precedent (Constantine/Prismatic Spray) that if/when a triggering effect occurs, the "game" looks at the card to see what happens, and there is nothing there to see.

    Note: I don't actually know how this is supposed to work, and I can see interpretations on both sides.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    The point I could argue is that in the Hulk/Tsarina situation, they still have their card text/abilities. There has been precedent (Constantine/Prismatic Spray) that if/when a triggering effect occurs, the "game" looks at the card to see what happens, and there is nothing there to see.
    But in that situation Spray removes Constantine's text before the trigger occurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    Note: I don't actually know how this is supposed to work, and I can see interpretations on both sides.
    Likewise.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I am not arguing that either Hulk or Jocasta do interrupt Loki.

    I am arguing that an ability that triggers off a game effect is initiated at the point the game effect occurs and that it then resolves fully, after the game effect that caused the triggering has completely resolved.

    Let us examine a different example of the same principle:

    I only have a Level 1 Green Goliath fielded.

    You have two Level 1 Tsarinas.

    It is your attack step and you assign both Tsarinas to attack.

    How much damage do I take from the Tsarinas' abilities?

    I have zero experience with Tsarina and Hulk. What happens here?
    4 damage, then hulk procs... 1x or 2x???

  22. #22
    From the rulebook:
    Once activated, an effect is always resolved entirely before the next effect begins. You cannot use an effect after your opponent starts an effect but before it resolves. The only exception to this is when an effect redirects or prevents damage, but those situations are clearly spelled out in the card text.

    So Jocasta DOES interrupt Loki. Hulk does not.

    And AiA beholder uses ALL four BAC's BEFORE any triggered effects resolve...

  23. #23
    You are missing the point, @SarkhanMad .

    Hulk doesn't interrupt anything, but his ability triggers during any effect that damages him or you.

    And, if his ability is intact at the time it triggers then it resolves fully after the effect that triggered it.

  24. #24
    I'm not missing the point. You've stated several times that hulk doesn't interrupt.
    I agree that he does trigger during loki's effect. I just believe that after loki's effect resolves, hulk can't follow his effect's instructions any longer, because he doesn't have any..

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    I have zero experience with Tsarina and Hulk. What happens here?
    4 damage, then hulk procs... 1x or 2x???
    Both Tsarina's trigger simultaneously, but they resolve separately.

    So it plays out like either this:

    1. Both Tsarina's are assigned to attack, triggering both their abilities.

    2. Opponent takes 2 damage from Tsarina 1, triggering Hulk.

    3. Hulk deals 3 damage to both Tsarina's, and another other characters you have fielded, knocking both Tsarina's out.

    4. Opponent takes 2 damage from Tsarina 2, triggering Hulk again.

    5. Hulk deals 3 damage to any remaining characters in your field.

    Or this:

    1. Both Tsarina's are assigned to attack, triggering both their abilities.

    2. Opponent takes 2 damage from Tsarina 1, triggering Hulk.

    3. Opponent takes 2 damage from Tsarina 2, triggering Hulk again.

    4. Hulk deals 3 damage to both Tsarina's, and another other characters you have fielded, knocking both Tsarina's out.

    5. Hulk deals 3 damage to any remaining characters in your field.

    Depending on how you choose to resolve it.

    Either way all effects resolve as they were at the time they were triggered.

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