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Thread: Wolverine TBTI Overcrush and multiple blockers

  1. #1

    Wolverine TBTI Overcrush and multiple blockers

    Ok so this came up in a game (and yes I've read the other threads)

    So wolverine does double damage to attackers (note does not double attack score) and due to an action has Overcrush.

    He attacks on his 8 attack side and is blocked by 5 defence 1 characters and two defence 4 characters.

    My thinking is that you double damage so attack has to be assigned before doubling so 1 attack point (doubled to 2 by ability) is assigned to all the defence 1 characters leaving 3 points of attack left, 2 are applied to one defence 4 character (doubling to 4 and KO him) the remaining 1 attack is doubled to 2 and applied to the last character who is not ko'd and therefore Overcrush does not trigger.

    My opponent says 8x2 is 16 and 5 ko's the 5 def 1, 8 KO the two def 4 and 3 goes through to damage me.

    Who is correct?

  2. #2
    Attacker assigns damage, damage is doubled, what's left is the overcrush. You are correct.

  3. #3
    I believe you are correct.

    If Wolvie were worded differently...something like "When Wolverine is blocked deal double damage"...you would be wrong, because his doubling would trigger by the blocking, then he could divide it up.

    Since it is worded the way it is, I believe you would need to determine how much damage each blocker is getting before doubling it.

    So...I agree with you...no overcrush because not all blockers were KO'd.


  4. #4
    There is an explicit ruling about this card:

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=5724&p=16273

    And the way I currently read this ruling is that Wolverine's attack value is doubled, then damage is assigned, then Overcrush is checked.

  5. #5
    You're reading it wrong. When Wolverine assigns damage to defending characters, that damage gets doubled. If he manages to knock out all defending characters, Overcrush procs and redirects all excess damage to the opponent.

    What happens in this instance is that Wolverine cannot assign his damage in such a way as to knock out all the defenders. He only has 8 damage to assign, regardless of it doubling when it is assigned to a defending character. Accordingly, he is only able to assign enough damage to knock out both 3-defense characters and only 4 of the 5 1-defense characters. If he had 9 damage, he could assign it in such a way to knock out all 7 defenders, but he does not and so a blocker lives, meaning that Overcrush does not proc.

    The ruling you cite only declares that all of the doubled damage is redirected to your opponent, it does not state that Wolverine doubles his attack when blocked.

  6. #6
    Yep seen that ruling but it only refers to one blocker where the attack value in full would be applied as damage (doubled) therefore 16. I think my question is different as it involves multiple blockers where because of the number of blockers involved it would be impossible to KO all if you double the damage applied to the target (which is how the card reads).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    You're reading it wrong.
    Or you are.

    There is not enough information in the ruling to unambiguously discern which of us is correct.

    I am just stating my current reading of that ruling.

  8. #8
    Oh I see where you're coming from mate, I just don't think the ruling answers that question or gives any clue to the correct answer (let's face they are hardly a consistent set of rulings). Guess I should submit it to them?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Dude View Post
    Oh I see where you're coming from mate, I just don't think the ruling answers that question or gives any clue to the correct answer (let's face they are hardly a consistent set of rulings). Guess I should submit it to them?
    I agree.

    I was answering Necromanticer, rather than you, in my last comment.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Or you are.

    There is not enough information in the ruling to unambiguously discern which of us is correct.

    I am just stating my current reading of that ruling.
    The thing is, we do have enough information to puzzle this out.

    Wolverine's effect declares that any damage he deals to blockers is then doubled. He never states that his damage is doubled when he is blocked. Accordingly, he only has 8 damage to deal to the blockers. Once it is assigned to a blocker, each of those increments of damage is doubled. If he was able to knock out all of his blockers, your cited ruling would come into effect and redirect all 3 excess damage to the opponent. However, since Wolverince cannot possibly knock out all blockers in this instance, he cannot deal his overcrush damage.

    The only way we can read it as ambiguous is if we entertain the possibility that Wolverine doubles his damage before assigning damage. However, his effect explicitly states that only damage he deals to his blockers is doubled. Accordingly, he is completely unable to assign his damage as though it were doubled and there is no ambiguity in this case.

    Unless he is errata'd, Wolverine assigns damage as normal and only when it is dealt to blockers is it doubled, exactly in accordance with his effect text.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Unless he is errata'd, Wolverine assigns damage as normal and only when it is dealt to blockers is it doubled, exactly in accordance with his effect text.
    Except, and this is where the ambiguity comes in, that he also doubles his Overcrush damage.

    Your opponent is not a blocker, so if he only doubles his damage "when it is dealt to blockers" then he shouldn't double his Overcrush damage.

    But he does.

    Ergo something else is at play here.

    Ergo I think his attack value is doubled before damage is assigned.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Except, and this is where the ambiguity comes in, that he also doubles his Overcrush damage.

    Your opponent is not a blocker, so if he only doubles his damage "when it is dealt to blockers" then he shouldn't double his Overcrush damage.

    But he does.

    Ergo something else is at play here.

    Ergo I think his attack value is doubled before damage is assigned.
    False.

    Overcrush acts as a redirect. Wolverine does not double his damage when overcrushing, the damage that was assigned to the blocker is doubled and then any and all excess is redirected to your opponent. Wolverine effectively doubles his damage when overcrushing because his damage is doubled when it applies to a blocker. Since overcrush redirects the excess, the damage is not dealt to the blocker as excess, but rather the player, while still keeping its doubled value.

    You're introducing ambiguity where none exists because you're fundamentally misunderstanding the overcrush mechanic.

  13. #13
    I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the Overcrush mechanic.

    Nothing I have read, anywhere, in the rules or rulings, suggests that Overcrush is any kind of "redirect mechanic".

    And all other redirect abilities, that I can think of right now. exist on the thing doing the redirection not the thing causing the effect that is being redirected.

    Everything I have read about Overcrush suggests, to me at least, that Overcrush changes the way that the character that has the Overcrush ability assigns their damage.

    It is the attacker that has Overcrush, not the blockers.

  14. #14
    The way we know Overcrush is a redirect is because it only occurs when all blockers are knocked out. If it functioned as a way to change how damage was assigned, then the mechanic would break against "prevent" effects such as Iron Man - Inventor or Vibranium Shield's global. Since you originally would have only assigned enough damage to knock out the character and the rest of the damage to your opponent. However, if your opponent then used the Vibranium Shield's global to reduce the incoming damage, the defending character would no longer be knocked out and Overcrush would fail to trigger, even though you had enough damage to assign to the defender. Prevention effects happen after damage is assigned, so you would be unable to retroactively redistribute the damage assignment and the whole game state breaks down.

    However, because Overcrush works as a redirect, this situation poses no problem. It is only after the assigned damage resolves and ultimately knocks out the blocking characters that all the leftover damage which would normally have no effect is then redirected towards your opponent.

    Overcrush has nothing to do with how damage is assigned outside of the fact that if you fail to assign enough damage to knock out the defending character, Overcrush will not trigger.

    You have to consider the ramifications of your rules interpretations before you claim them as true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    And all other redirect abilities, that I can think of right now. exist on the thing doing the redirection not the thing causing the effect that is being redirected.

    It is the attacker that has Overcrush, not the blockers.
    Once again, you're misinterpreting things. Overcrush is an ability of the attacker that redirects all the damage it deals in excess of the opponent's blockers' defenses intto your opponent's life. Nothing about this interacts with the blockers save for the check of if they are knocked out. The attacking character is redirecting its own damage, yet you're trying to construe things as though the blockers are the ones redirecting the damage they take. I honestly don't even kno where you're coming from with this line of reasoning, but it amounts to nothing.

  15. #15
    In fact, here is a pretty explicit statement that Overcrush works the way I think it does:

    Overcrush only applies damage to blockers up until the point at which the damage is sufficient to knock the blockers out, and then applies the remaining damage to your opponent.
    Source: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=5861&p=13883

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    In fact, here is a pretty explicit statement that Overcrush works the way I think it does:


    Source: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=5861&p=13883
    ... Your quote proves me right...

    Changing how damage is applied is the definition of a redirect. "Applying" and "Assigning" damage are two distinct concepts. When your attacker is blocked, you assign all its damage to the blockers. When Overcrush procs, all damage applied in excess of the blockers' health is then redirected and applied to the opponents life.

    You need to read these rulings looking for these discrepancies. If you're conflating assigning and applying damage, it's only natural that you're going to run into the problems you do.

  17. #17
    Good questions @Strange Dude . Have you submitted it to the rules forum already?

  18. #18

  19. #19
    Good Man. I don't think that registration will be in vein. Plus now you have a WES account!

  20. #20
    I'll just leave this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Age of Ultron rule book, page 10-11
    Assign Damage
    Both players assign damage. Damage occurs simultaneously. (In the rare case where it is relevant, the attacking player assigns first, although damage still resolves simultaneously.)

    Each attacking character that was blocked assigns its Attack Value in damage to the character(s) blocking it. If more than one character is blocking an attacking character, the attacker can choose how to divide the damage between the blockers (and can even assign all the damage to one and none to the other). An attacking character must assign all of its damage. Likewise, each blocking character assigns damage equal to its Attack Value to the character it blocks. Damage dealt to a character in excess of its defense has no effect.

    Attacking characters that were unblocked (or those with the appropriate special ability) assign damage to the defending player instead of a character. That damage will be deducted from the player’s life total.

    Unblocked characters are moved Out of Play after dealing damage, before any other effects resolve other than those that would replace damage. They’ll go to the Used Pile during Cleanup.

    Once all damage has been assigned, knock out each character that took damage greater than or equal to its defense. When a character is knocked out, move it to that player’s Prep Area. If game effects are generated by a character taking damage or being knocked out, the attacking player resolves all effects first, then the defender.


    Quote Originally Posted by Age of Ultron rule book, page 26
    Abilities: The text on the die’s associated card.

    Action: A die that has no character faces. A face on such a die that shows the special graphic ( ) and can be used for a powerful effect.

    Active: An effect that takes place when one or more of that card’s dice are in the field.

    Assign: To commit your characters to attack, or to block an attacking character. Also, to designate how a character’s Attack Value is dealt as damage to targets in an attack step.

    Attack: To send your characters to try to damage your opponent.

    Burst: ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Age of Ultron rule book, back page
    Attack Step

    Select attackers. Resolve effects that occur due to attacking. Assign blockers. Resolve effects that occur due to blocking. Use action dice. Place them Out of Play when finished. Both players can use Global Abilities.

    Assign and resolve damage. Resolve effects that occur due to damage or knock out.
    And let others make up their own minds about wether any of that looks like a two step, "assign" then "apply" process, or not.

  21. #21
    Wolverine's ability: deals double damage to characters that block him

    The position for my opinion is the interpretation of the underlined phrase above. The condition for doubling damage is first being blocked, and such damage dealt to each assigned blocker is doubled; I do not read it as: if blocked, double damage, then deal (split) the doubled damage amount across any/all blockers. Note: Such a distinction is made in the Doctor Octopus - Mad Scientist ability, which supports my interpretation about Wolverine, since Wolverine's ability does not have this specific language.

    "When Doctor Octopus is blocked by more than one character, he deals his full attack value in damage to each character blocking him (instead of having to split it)."

    Breaking this down:
    Attacker (Wolverine TBTI) has 8A; Overcrush in effect

    Assigned Blockers (seven total):
    [a] 1D
    [b] 1D
    [c] 1D
    [d] 1D
    [e] 1D
    [f] 4D
    [g] 4D

    Attacker parses out 8A damage as follows:
    [a] 1A (x2 for ability = 2A) result, blocker KO’d
    [b] 1A (x2 for ability = 2A) result, blocker KO’d
    [c] 1A (x2 for ability = 2A) result, blocker KO’d
    [d] 1A (x2 for ability = 2A) result, blocker KO’d
    [e] 1A (x2 for ability = 2A) result, blocker KO’d
    [f] 2A (x2 for ability = 4A) result, blocker KO’d
    [g] 1A (x2 for ability = 2A) result, blocker not KO'd, no Overcrush occurs

    Without getting into the discussion about “redirect”, which I feel unnecessarily complicates the answer to the question, in the scenario above, the attacker (Wolverine) is multi-blocked and does not deal enough damage to KO all of the assigned blockers. Therefore, Overcrush does not occur.

  22. #22
    @Scorpion0x17

    In all of those examples, there is a distinct separation of damage being assigned and damage being resolved. Damage assignment is when you declare where your damage is going. Damage resolution is when you you apply/deal the damage, prevention effects reduce the damage being applied, and overcrush then redirects any spare damage to your opponent. Read the rulings you're citing, all the information is there.

  23. #23
    @archivist

    That's exactly how it breaks down. However, the mechanics of Overcrush are necessary to hash out for if it changes how damage is assigned instead of changing how damage is applied, according to the ruling, Wolverine would in fact double his damage the moment he is blocked. That would be the only way Wolverine could work in the explicit ruling. Accordingly, to prove that the example you laid out is correct, it is necessary for me and @Scorpion0x17 to bring up all these rulings so that everyone can see that Overcrush functions as a redirection when damage is being dealt rather than changing how damage is assigned.

    Since I and Scorpion have brought up all these examples in the affirmative, we have unambiguously shown that in this example, Wolverine cannot proc his Overcrush because he does not have enough damage to assign in order to knock out all of his blockers.

  24. #24
    Given that "redirect" is specific game terminology that has particular rules that apply to it, it's important to distinguish that Overcrush damage may be "redirecting" by the dictionary definition of the word redirect but may not be "redirecting" by the rulebook definition of the word "redirect." WK has given no previous indication that Overcrush damage "redirects" in gameplay parlance the way that Jocasta, Mr. Fantastic, et al would. Excess damage from Overcrush is applied to your opponent and if we are going to call it "redirected" damage then a synonym should probably be employed pending some indication from WK to the contrary.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Read the rulings you're citing, all the information is there.
    You know what, if you can't discuss this without resorting to casting aspersions about my reading skills that's where this ends.

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