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Thread: Gelatinous Cube and Magneto - Magnetic Monster

  1. #1

    Gelatinous Cube and Magneto - Magnetic Monster

    I've been mulling this problem over in my head and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the interaction between Gelatinous Cube and Zombie Magneto.

    If Zombie Magneto gets knocked out in combat, may the other player then proceed to capture that Zombie Magneto with a 3-cost Gelatinous Cube? While Zombie Magneto is active, the Gelatinous Cube would be unable to activate its effect. However, once Zombie Magneto is knocked out, is his effect removed in such a timing that the opposing Gelatinous Cube would regain its effect and still be able to capture the knocked out Zombie Magneto?

    I have an idea of how the timing would resolve, but I want second opinions before I set anything up.

  2. #2
    The Gelatinous Cube ability triggers off of a character being knocked out. If Zombie Magneto has removed the cube's ability, I would think that the trigger wouldn't happen when Zombie Magneto is knocked out.


  3. #3
    The argument here is that Magneto's effect also ends the moment he's knocked out. Accordingly one could argue that Gelatinous Cube is able to react to his knockout since his effect would no longer be in play. It's a question of intricate timings and I want to hear what the community thinks before I decide on one of these rulings or the other.

  4. #4
    Oh boy. This is a can of worms.

    I recommend you get your AoU or JuL rule book out and read the sections relating to assigning and resolving damage during the attack step, and the cleanup step.

    Then compare those sections to the same sections in any of the prior rule books.

    There is something odd at foot and I have a theory, but it involves a great deal of speculation and reading between the lines.

    But, I will just say this:

    Have you ever wondered why the official mats have a 'KO' area on them?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Oh boy. This is a can of worms.

    I recommend you get your AoU or JuL rule book out and read the sections relating to assigning and resolving damage during the attack step, and the cleanup step.

    Then compare those sections to the same sections in any of the prior rule books.

    There is something odd at foot and I have a theory, but it involves a great deal of speculation and reading between the lines.

    But, I will just say this:

    Have you ever wondered why the official mats have a 'KO' area on them?
    I was hoping that would be addressed someday. I'm glad I'm not the only one...

  6. #6
    Z-Magnetos while Active turns off when he is KO'd. After that G-Cube can capture again for a KOd character.
    That how it looks for me.

    So Wolverine The best there is takes Magneto head on in the attack step. They fighting slashing... damage is assigned. -> KO for Magneto x_x undead zombie is dead and goes in transit to the KO Zone.
    G-Cube can again capture ko'd characters. but The card of G-Cube doesnt see someone flying to the Graveyard because he was opressed before by an evil beeing called Deadp.... I mean Z-Magneto!!!!
    Cleanup -> Z-magneto goes to the prep Area.

    Well thats how i see it but i am not sure.. .
    It would be gread to have some cartoon comic clips with actions from the cards like in Starcraft 2

  7. #7
    I can see a case being made here that Cube regains his ability simultaneously to Magneto's ability ending, so that the active player would decide which would "resolve" first, allowing or disallowing Cube to capture.

    My gut says that Cube can capture in any circumstance, though. As implied with the KO space on the playmat, Cube wouldn't be able to capture until Mags moves to the KO "field", by that time Mags is clearly out of play meaning Cube has an ability again.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    My gut says that Cube can capture in any circumstance, though. As implied with the KO space on the playmat, Cube wouldn't be able to capture until Mags moves to the KO "field", by that time Mags is clearly out of play meaning Cube has an ability again.
    Yes, this is what I am driving at.

    I think the way KO works is another thing, like Out Of Play, that got mangled by the original rules editor.

    And I believe it should work like this:

    Dice that have received damage equal to or greater than their defence are moved, immediately, to KO.

    Dice in KO are no-longer considered 'in play'/'fielded'/'active' (whichever of those horribly overloaded game terms you prefer), and so any static abilities they have are no longer in effect, but they can still be affected by abilities (including their own that triggered when they took damage).

    Dice in KO are the moved to Prep (out of the reach of any and all abilities that don't explicitly reach in to Prep) during Cleanup.

    This would explain how it is that Hulk Anger Issues is able to bring himself back to life after he has been KO'd by damage.

    And would make the Z.Mags/Cube timing clear, and unambiguous, as described by @alleyviper , above.

    But, as I said, this is all highly speculative and is only based upon reading between the lines of the change to the wording of the rules in the JuL rule book, and that rather peculiar Hulk ruling.

    I hope you have posted your question to the rules forum, @Necromanticer , and that they answer it if so, because I would be very interested to see an official answer - it will either blow my theory clean out the water or lend it more support, depending on which way they go.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Yes, this is what I am driving at.

    I think the way KO works is another thing, like Out Of Play, that got mangled by the original rules editor.

    And I believe it should work like this:

    Dice that have received damage equal to or greater than their defence are moved, immediately, to KO.

    Dice in KO are no-longer considered 'in play'/'fielded'/'active' (whichever of those horribly overloaded game terms you prefer), and so any static abilities they have are no longer in effect, but they can still be affected by abilities (including their own that triggered when they took damage).

    Dice in KO are the moved to Prep (out of the reach of any and all abilities that don't explicitly reach in to Prep) during Cleanup.

    This would explain how it is that Hulk Anger Issues is able to bring himself back to life after he has been KO'd by damage.

    And would make the Z.Mags/Cube timing clear, and unambiguous, as described by @alleyviper , above.

    But, as I said, this is all highly speculative and is only based upon reading between the lines of the change to the wording of the rules in the JuL rule book, and that rather peculiar Hulk ruling.

    I hope you have posted your question to the rules forum, @Necromanticer , and that they answer it if so, because I would be very interested to see an official answer - it will either blow my theory clean out the water or lend it more support, depending on which way they go.
    I was talking with @Shadowmeld about that very same KO mechanic and we both agree with your reading of the KO system.

    I have posed the question on the forum, so all there is left to do is wait and hopefully get some clarification.

    The problem is that even if this is how KO's work, Gelatinous Cube specifies that you must pay the at the time of the target character being knocked out, so it wouldn't necessarily work even if the KO system does work how we're reading it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    The problem is that even if this is how KO's work, Gelatinous Cube specifies that you must pay the at the time of the target character being knocked out, so it wouldn't necessarily work even if the KO system does work how we're reading it.
    G'ah! That I had not considered. Well, I guess all it means is an answer in the negative from dmrulesteam won't completely destroy my theory.

    (I am glad, and somewhat surprised, that you and @Shadowmeld agree with me, @Necromanticer ! :P)

  11. #11
    Actually, I found some game text in the rules that seems to clarify this point a bit. According to the rule book (AoU I think), there iwls a section that says dice that are KOed go to the prep area. another section states that in the cleanup phase, dice that were KOed due to lethal combat damage, go to the KO zone after combat, and then are moved to the prep area durring clean up.

    My new understanding is that the KO zone is only really used for combat KOs.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    AoU rulebook, of 5 "prep area".
    Page 11, Cleanup step.
    There is a section under combat that mentions KOd characters going to Prep, but it does say that when a die is Knocked out, move it to the prep area. I would argue that KOd is a subset of preped, similar to the attack zone being a subset of the field. I would also extrapolate that to extend to the out of play being a subset of the used pile. This clears up most wording issues, is supported by the Maria Hill ruling, and still prevents PXG usage, as all things out of play still can't be interacted with.

  14. #14
    In Justice League there is only this text, that it goes to KO Zone, and in cleanup they go to Prep Area.

    It only effects Characters that need this KOd character die in the prep area if they have done something. RedEyed Black Dragon for example, when fielded the opponent must put a die from the prep to the used pile.

    But i didnt found what happens when a dice is KOd in the Mainstep. SO could you please just copy & paste it here please?

  15. #15
    I dont see why it shouldn't work. As it states for Zombie Magneto "while active" all your cards are big body pawns. Once he's off the Cube should be active and I should be allowed to capture him with a shield.

    Wizkids at times can be very janky but most of the time its just misread.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    AoU rulebook, of 5 "prep area".
    Page 11, Cleanup step.
    There is a section under combat that mentions KOd characters going to Prep, but it does say that when a die is Knocked out, move it to the prep area. I would argue that KOd is a subset of preped, similar to the attack zone being a subset of the field.
    Yeah, you're looking at the same parts of the rulebooks as I am.

    I don't see where you're getting the idea that the KO Zone is only used for KO during combat, but we are in general agreement over how it looks like the KO area is intended to be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    I would also extrapolate that to extend to the out of play being a subset of the used pile. This clears up most wording issues, is supported by the Maria Hill ruling, and still prevents PXG usage, as all things out of play still can't be interacted with.
    Yeah, I can see that too.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    In Justice League there is only this text, that it goes to KO Zone, and in cleanup they go to Prep Area.
    Actually, both the Justice League and Age of Ultron rule books have the same wording:

    Quote Originally Posted by Assign Damage
    Once all damage has been assigned, knock out each character that took damage greater than or equal to its defense. When a character is knocked out, move it to that player’s Prep Area.
    (emphasis mine)

    However, both @Shadowmeld and myself are reading this as you move dice to 'KO' when then are KO'd, and then this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleanup
    Characters that were KO’d (from damage from an attacker, damage from a blocker, or some other effect during the Assign Damage step) are sent to the Prep Area.
    as meaning they don't move from KO into the Prep Area until Cleanup.

  18. #18
    But, as the parenthetical implies, the KO area only matters durring the Asign damage step.

  19. #19
    Strange, based on the wording of both of those sentences I would still assume nothing ever goes to the KO area but if it did it'd move to the prep area.

    Edit: Reading the parenthetical as reminder text, you could remove it from the sentence and get "Characters that were KO’d are sent to the Prep Area." which is an odd statement. Also, the example fight, on page 16 contains this line of text
    Lex can’t block her Black Widow, but blocks her Captain America.
    His Sidekick is KO’d, and goes into his Prep Area.
    which makes it sound like when a thing is KO'd in combat it goes to the prep area.

  20. #20
    Something to add to the debate...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (from the play mat image in the AoU rule book)

  21. #21
    Exactly. Perhaps the KO section is just a way to sort things that have been KOed this turn to things that were simply prepped. This is helpful alongside things like feedback or the Rare Deadman.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Exactly. Perhaps the KO section is just a way to sort things that have been KOed this turn to things that were simply prepped. This is helpful alongside things like feedback or the Rare Deadman.
    I think the same, that you just see what is KOd this turn to not get confused, but i think that KO is in the Prep Area integrated(speculation).

  23. #23

  24. #24
    KO isn't a subsection of the prep area, it is the prep area. There is no such thing as the "KO area", KOd dice are prepped.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    KO isn't a subsection of the prep area, it is the prep area. There is no such thing as the "KO area", KOd dice are prepped.
    Then why is there not only a KO area on every single official mat, but also, on the mat in the rule book from which the above image comes from, both arrows leading to the KO area and an arrow leading from KO to Prep (but none leading from anywhere else to Prep)?

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