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Thread: Hulk: Gamma Powered vs. Gamora: Assassin

  1. #1

    Hulk: Gamma Powered vs. Gamora: Assassin

    Hulk: Gamma Powered
    - Overcrush. If Hulk attacks and damages your opponent while at level 2 or 3, return him to the field at level 1.

    Gamora: Assassin
    - Gamora KOPs each enemy die she deals combat damage to.

    Came up in a game this weekend. I with Gamora, opponent with Hulk on Lv 3. I didn't have enough to group block and prevent Overcrush damage. However, one of my blockers was Gamora.

    Opponent argued that Hulk would be treated with a conditional version of Regeneration because he did attack and do some damage to me thanks to Overcrush, and thus should return to the field at level 1.

    I argued that his return-to-field did not trigger because he was KO'd by Gamora, and that his conditional Regenerate only worked if he was still alive after resolution of damage to apply said ability.

    As the opponent was my girlfriend, I let her win that fight. However, as it's been bugging me either way, how would you have called that play?

  2. #2
    Overcrush would only kick in if all of the blockers were KOed/removed. Hulk's ability wouldn't trigger unless he was on the way to the used pile after getting through and damaging the opponent, which he couldn't do if he was blocked (once blocked, always blocked).

    Rules aside, you made the correct decision at the time

  3. #3
    There's nothing in Hulk's ability that states his ability activates only if he's unblocked. While I think the intention of the card is to work that way I can definitely see the argument that he work if he Overcrushes damage through but gets KO'd. I could go either way here.

    I think I actually would prefer that he be able to return to the field if KO'd after Overcrushing, just because it would add a little more nuance to his ability.

  4. #4
    I admit, I love that idea as well @alleyviper , but wouldn't both effects trigger simultaneously? And thus wouldn't the active player resolve his effect, then the inactive player resolve hers?

    In this case, damage is done, Hulk triggers a return to the field and Gamora triggers a KO effect.

    Resolve the return to the field first, then resolve the KO effect.

    Now, I could have misiterperated the timings here, but that is how I read it.

  5. #5
    Depends on whether Hulk triggers on damage or on leaving the field. If it triggers on damage and we're resolving Hulk's ability first, there's really there to resolve anyway because he's not leaving the field in the first place. He's not going to return to something he never left.

    It's more clear in a situation where he's unblocked because damage and leaving the field happen at the same time there so it doesn't matter if it triggers on damage or leaving the field. Which maybe answers the question for us as to whether he can return to the field if he's blocked and KO'd.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    There's nothing in Hulk's ability that states his ability activates only if he's unblocked. While I think the intention of the card is to work that way I can definitely see the argument that he work if he Overcrushes damage through but gets KO'd. I could go either way here.
    just because it would add a little more nuance to his ability.
    Hmm..

    Reading his card strictly, if he gets damage through via Overcrush then he never leaves the Field, so there's no opportunity for him to return to the field at a different lvl. The only way, normally, would be to go through unblocked and attack the opponent which would send him to the used pile - when his ability should kick in to return him to the field. In this scenario, Hulk isn't attacking the opponent, he's attacking Gamora with the excess damage overcrushing to the opponent.

    That being said, Gamora KOing him would send him the the Prep area (not the KO area as her ability isn't combat damage), and that technically is out of the Field so it seems that Hulk could return, but again his ability reads
    "If Hulk attacks and damages your opponent while at level 2 or 3, return him to the field at level 1."
    so the question seems to be can his ability trigger if he's KOed through a game effect, thus removing him from the field and allowing the opportunity to return to the field as long as damage was done to the player?

  7. #7
    Does Gamora's ability even kick in if she is KO'd by Hulk?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Does Gamora's ability even kick in if she is KO'd by Hulk?
    Definitely. Unlike characters such as Black Widow - Natural, Gamora's ability triggers when damage is dealt, regardless of who is engaged with her. As soon as she deals her damage, that character is KO'd, no matter what.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Does Gamora's ability even kick in if she is KO'd by Hulk?
    In this case Hulk isn't KOing her, however, normally I think it does trigger, but resolve - I'm not sure. Nothing in the text states the when the effect occurs, so is the implication that the KO happens immediately when damage occurs?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Definitely. Unlike characters such as Black Widow - Natural, Gamora's ability triggers when damage is dealt, regardless of who is engaged with her. As soon as she deals her damage, that character is KO'd, no matter what.
    Well that's what I get for posting without refreshing

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    (not the KO area as her ability isn't combat damage)
    The whole KO area debate only further complicates things. The rules as written don't say anything about anything going to KO at any time. Just that KO'd dice go to prep. In fact you could read the current rules as meaning that the KO area is only used outside of the Attack Step.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Definitely. Unlike characters such as Black Widow - Natural, Gamora's ability triggers when damage is dealt, regardless of who is engaged with her. As soon as she deals her damage, that character is KO'd, no matter what.
    Yeah, good point. I agree with that.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    In this case Hulk isn't KOing her
    We've resolved that question, but, just a point of detail;

    Hulk must KO Gamora in the given scenario, because he doesn't deal Overcrush damage otherwise (and the whole question becomes moot).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    The whole KO area debate only further complicates things. The rules as written don't say anything about anything going to KO at any time. Just that KO'd dice go to prep. In fact you could read the current rules as meaning that the KO area is only used outside of the Attack Step.
    True, that can of worms is speculation at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    We've resolved that question, but, just a point of detail;

    Hulk must KO Gamora in the given scenario, because he doesn't deal Overcrush damage otherwise (and the whole question becomes moot).

    That was in my initial reply, as he said he didn't have enough defense to prevent Overcrush, I just read it differently
    Last edited by IgwanaRob; 08-17-2015 at 02:14 PM.

  15. #15
    From the rule book:
    Once all damage has been assigned, knock out each character that took damage greater than or equal to its defense. When a character is knocked out, move it to that player’s Prep Area. If game effects are generated by a character taking damage or being knocked out, the attacking player resolves all effects first, then the defender. 5. CLEANUP STEP Characters that were KO’d (by damage from an attacker, damage from a blocker, or some other effect during the Assign Damage Step) are sent to the Prep Area. Characters that blocked or were blocked but not KO’d return to the Field Zone.


    That last line says "return to the field"

    So to simplify, does a lvl 3 Hulk blocked by a SK, get spun down?
    I say yes.


    As for original question... I think Hulk would return to field at lvl 1 first (see above= If game effects are generated by a character taking damage or being knocked out, the attacking player resolves all effects first, then the defender ) then Gamora KO's him...

  16. #16
    Characters in the attack zone are "returned to the field" after they do their damage. This means Hulk would overcrush and do damage to the opponent while still in the attack zone, and would spin down and be returned to the field.

    I understand that the attack zone is part of the field, but I cite distraction, and the rulebook, for similar wordings.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    As for original question... I think Hulk would return to field at lvl 1 first (see above= If game effects are generated by a character taking damage or being knocked out, the attacking player resolves all effects first, then the defender ) then Gamora KO's him...
    Yeah, I see the timing of this now.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    So to simplify, does a lvl 3 Hulk blocked by a SK, get spun down?
    I say yes.
    I disagree. I think Overcrush rules send a character back at the same level. Hulk's stated ability only triggers if he goes unblocked. With your interpretation, it seems like the attacker is being penalized if he is spun down if blocked.

    EDIT TO ADD: The Rules also state that the Attack Zone is a "special part of the field zone." Being in the Attack Zone does not mean a character has left the Field Zone. The only way to leave the field zone is to go to Prep Area, Reserve Pool, or Used Pile. A blocked character does not leave the Field, even if said character is attacking.

    That being said, if you are right, then this Hulk is the Reverse She-Hulk Jennifer Walters.

    I hope this is one that gets addressed on the Rules Forum.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorback View Post
    I disagree. I think Overcrush rules send a character back at the same level. Hulk's stated ability only triggers if he goes unblocked.
    Depends on the interpretation:
    If Hulk attacks and damages your opponent
    is different than:
    If Hulk attacks, and damages your opponent
    Hulk did attack, just not directly to the opposing player. He did do damage to the opposing player via OC. He was removed from the Field, only instead of heading to used he was heading to prep via a character's ability.

    It wouldn't be the first time where what was printed was nothing like what was clarified as WK's intention, but as printed it seems like Hulk needs to do direct damage to the opponent (unblocked) in order to return, yet it's still ambiguous.

  20. #20
    Both Hulk's and Gamora's abilities trigger simultaneously, so the active player decides resolution order.

    In this specific case, the active player is the one attacking with Hulk, so likely they will choose to have Gamora KO Hulk such that Hulk's ability resolves and returns him to the field at level 1. But it's possible the active player would prefer to re-roll Hulk. Like I said, it's up to the active player.

    EDIT: Apparently the active player's effects take priority, so Hulk would return to play and then be KO'd. Every time.
    Last edited by digitallimit; 08-17-2015 at 05:16 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by digitallimit View Post
    Both Hulk's and Gamora's abilities trigger simultaneously, so the active player decides resolution order.
    No. Active player ALWAYS resolves their effects first. Always. If the active player has simultaneously occurring effects, then they choose the order, but only the order of their own effects. But you always resolve all of the active players effects first, then inactive.

  22. #22
    My misconception! And I expect many peoples'... I've never heard that the active player's effects go first, only that the active player determines the order of simultaneous effects. I'll edit my response.

    What about the inactive player's simultaneous effects? Who orders those?

  23. #23
    Whichever player has simultaneous effects gets to decide the order of the efects. Pg 21 AoU rulebook.

  24. #24
    Yeah, this is a very common misconception.

    I had it wrong myself, until quite recently.

  25. #25
    And, Hulk does not leave the field. He does not spin down. He does get KO'd. He does not come back.

    In my opinion.

    (And, Gamora is also KO'd)

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