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Thread: What is this "issue" with the game that Randy is talking about?

  1. #1

    What is this "issue" with the game that Randy is talking about?

    Just read Randy's blog post about leaving the game and I completely understand where he is coming from and applaud him on writing an honest and thoughtful blog post.

    Randy said he had to be vague on an "issue" to keep people's confidence, which I respect. Without pointing fingers or naming names, if the issue is game related (and could affect the larger Dice Masters community as a whole), can someone allude to what the core of the issue is? If the issue does not affect the larger Dice Masters community, please ignore this post.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    I'm curious too. I wonder if it's the same reason that Dice Anon has all but disappeared.

  3. #3
    The way it is written it sounds like it has nothing to do with the larger audience. And as a former (only because I realized I wasn't interested in the content side of things) Dice Anon member, I can tell you that the current state of DA has nothing to do with any conspiracy theories or even dice masters and everything go do with people's life circumstances.

  4. #4
    Well one crucial problem i think is the fear to do something wrong on purpose without knowing.

    Can you imagine what would happen in a big tournament with a winner because it was played like the rules state it and next week is a ruling from WK meaning the opposite. There maybe judges from the store knowing the rules well but even they cant look into the heads of the WK-Workers.

    And thats why i never want to use some cards like the Ring.

    For me in special i see the joy of the game between the beginning to play it and in the middle where you understand more and more of what can works with what based on common knowledge and already stated rules.
    But after that, where i am right now is sadness and from time to time frustration about small and sometimes big things in this game.

    I wished i could describe it somehow better.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    Well one crucial problem i think is the fear to do something wrong on purpose without knowing.

    Can you imagine what would happen in a big tournament with a winner because it was played like the rules state it and next week is a ruling from WK meaning the opposite. There maybe judges from the store knowing the rules well but even they cant look into the heads of the WK-Workers.

    And thats why i never want to use some cards like the Ring.

    For me in special i see the joy of the game between the beginning to play it and in the middle where you understand more and more of what can works with what based on common knowledge and already stated rules.
    But after that, where i am right now is sadness and from time to time frustration about small and sometimes big things in this game.

    I wished i could describe it somehow better.
    The main issue here is that Wizkids isn't very on the ball about rules changes. Rules change all the time in games, and those changes don't invalidate wins of any kind, it's usually just a game evolving. For example, I also play Warmachine and Hordes, and there was a BIG errata recently that shook up the meta greatly. This doesn't change games and events people won before it, just how they'll win after.

    Wizkids isn't anywhere near as good about this stuff as Privateer Press or Wizards of the Coast. If something changes, they need to announce how it works RIGHT when the rules change, or even before. The fact that they use a forum that is randomly updated, is a huge issue. They need to use their blogs, and update these blogs daily, to keep the community informed.


    Now, I'm not the kind of person to point out issues and not have possible solutions. My only real idea, is kind of big and might not be realistic, but if this trend with the rules continues, it may be the only chance to keep the game going. We would need to have a fan made format, mainly one that changes poor rulings on cards, such as Jocasta vs human paladin. When a card is ruled differently then what the card actually says, we have a big problem, and we have to fix it. So what this format would be, is normal unlimited constructed, but with a proper approach to the rules. We'd interpret rules and cards properly, and maintain a standardized rule book that doesn't change with each set. This would also call for a lot more fan run large events, like unofficial regionals and worlds and such. Yes this is a big undertaking, and I don't expect it to go anywhere unless things get worse, but it's a possible solution to think about.


    That's just my two cents, who knows, maybe Wizkids is gearing up for a huge change with the rumored tournament changes for worlds and qualifiers. Maybe...

  6. #6
    Maybe a solution could be we emulate something worked

    The Bloodbowl Rules Committee - A Committee that made the rules and the community agreed to use when Games Workshop failed to update the game

  7. #7
    The problem with that is this game still exists, is still being developed, and is still being updated. I don't want two sets of rules depending on who is organizing the event. I want a consistent set of rules for all events. I'm not saying WizKids needs to take on more costs and burdens though. For legal/financial reasons it might not be plausible to just say "Here WizKids your game is broken and here is a list of how to fix it." and have them implement it, for the same reason WotC does not allow fan submitted card design outside of special events.

  8. #8
    Well something has be done - otherwise in a year this game will be dead

  9. #9
    I have an idea that might help, but first rule is to slow down a minute and think about the rules changes we actually want. Keep in mind we as consumers only have so much pull in the actual game's design space. We need to be comprehensive, rational, collected, and never aggressive toward the company. It needs to be or at least look supportive and not demanding. We then collect the rules changes we actually want into a document, and try to contact them as a collective and provide sources for these changes - show them the amount of players who worked on this. Explain why we think these changes are good. We also need to go with someone who has decent contact with them already, someone like Dave maybe? The thing is I never want the communication to break down, and I don't want a consumer revolt of any sort. This is a labor of love, not of frustration. I think that needs to be kept at the center of this.

  10. #10
    A rules doc won't really be necessary, all of this isn't to tell wizkids what rules we want, but to have a standard way of wording things and a standard rule set that only changes for big reasons. I'd you look at magic, the only real rule changes are to make cards easier to understand. They just changed mulligans in magic too, which is the first big change in 5 years or so. Wizkids changes things with every rulebook and they have no consistent wording and the rules forum doesn't seen to have a standard way of determining things.


    This is the stuff that wizkids needs to be told about. We should only resort to making rules ourselves, If they refuse to change.

  11. #11
    A standard way of wording things = rules for how cards should be formatted. We shouldn't resort to making rules ourselves, ever. What we need is a proofread list of agreed upon changes that the community wants implemented, put forth in a presentable manner. We then need to communicate with WizKids like respectable adults and be open to their perspective too. We can't just throw a fit and expect change to happen.

  12. #12
    It's very clear that this is not something Randy wants to discuss, so speculating and creating conspiracy theories does a lot more harm than good, especially when there is no evidence anywhere to back up said speculation. Someone brought this up earlier and I want to elaborate because I like their point. If WK is currently making decisions that you don't think are in anyone's best interest, the. Send them a CIVIL and CALM email outlining your concerns as well as possible solutions. I know, I know, positivity, but I think most people will agree with me when I say that complaining in multiple threads on TRP, especially the thread where people should be wishing Randy well on his future endeavours, doesn't accomplish anything. It's clear that people's frustrations are boiling over, but I like to think that the Dice Masters community is better than that.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    A standard way of wording things = rules for how cards should be formatted. We shouldn't resort to making rules ourselves, ever. What we need is a proofread list of agreed upon changes that the community wants implemented, put forth in a presentable manner. We then need to communicate with WizKids like respectable adults and be open to their perspective too. We can't just throw a fit and expect change to happen.
    People keep forgetting that this isn't the first time in Wizkids' life as a company that people playing games have complained and tried communicating civilly about problems, etc...

    Wizkids just isn't a communicative company, or open about ANYTHING they do. It's honestly naive to think that they're ever going to change. This isn't negativity, just the reality of the situation.

    This is why I play the game locally and judge at the store and play with other people, but I would never go play at a Nationals or anything like that, unless there was something like the ROC for HeroClix or StarCityGames for Magic (even though WotC runs things fine as well, they're just big enough to have multiple legit tournament organizers), because the rulings really just aren't done well enough yet for me to want to compete in a high level event, only to get boned by something out of left field, etc...

    It's a great, fun game to play, but to take it any more seriously past the level of "Rainbow Draft Weekend" right now isn't a real option IMO. I mean, they do it, but the game just isn't quite organized well enough in terms of its rules and whatnot, for me to feel comfortable playing at any sort of top level event. Rulings are so likely to be interpreted differently by different judges: people read the rules like the Constitution as if there are multiple readings of it, and the fact is, like with HeroClix, there is no real judge certification or anything, most importantly the way Wizards of the Coast has tests for the different levels of judges at different sized/importance events, so that you know everybody judging has gone through the exact same training, with the same training on this and that ruling, without things changing as randomly as they are (at least announce that every month on the third Thursday by 5pm EST they'll add new answers to questions, or something) as well.

    I really love playing the game, but if I had to live with some of the uncertainty in rulings made at events, simply because of the lack of real answers, at anything bigger than a "Rainbow Draft Weekend," I'd be really unhappy hearing a judge try and interpret something themselves without being certain ahead of time and trained on that particular circumstance, which can only result in notes from playtesters before a set is released/feedback and seeing tournament team reports after a set is released.

    I do love the game, but it's nowhere near good enough quality control to be played at the levels that Wizkids takes it to.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    People keep forgetting that this isn't the first time in Wizkids' life as a company that people playing games have complained and tried communicating civilly about problems, etc...

    Wizkids just isn't a communicative company, or open about ANYTHING they do. It's honestly naive to think that they're ever going to change. This isn't negativity, just the reality of the situation.
    Here is the thing. If they're going to not listen to us it would have been better to be approachable so they have reassurance that they can talk to us later. Throwing negativity at the company isn't going to get them to listen any more than being reasonable will. I would rather show support and care for the company and build trust with them than burn bridges needlessly.

  15. #15
    Balance in this stuff is important. Tearing down or kissing up to WizKids will do little. We need to be honest about problems without attacking.

    My advice: templating is incredibly important and is a huge part of M:tG's success. WizKids should emulate that.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Here is the thing. If they're going to not listen to us it would have been better to be approachable so they have reassurance that they can talk to us later. Throwing negativity at the company isn't going to get them to listen any more than being reasonable will. I would rather show support and care for the company and build trust with them than burn bridges needlessly.
    Listen, I buy a case of all of their HeroClix and Dice Masters products, plus probably another case in playing in events and buying random packs, per set, per game.

    I show plenty of love to Wizkids, in the way they want love showed the most, through money spent. I'm not throwing negativity, and it's not fair to just conjure up that word anytime someone doesn't like what someone else says, because of the weight it carries on this website. I'm allowed to have had experiences and voice them. I'm not saying anything awful about Wizkids, just stating a fact that there has been a pattern of uncommunicative customer service in the past, and that I've basically just given into having fun playing the game(s, including HeroClix), but I'm not going to ever throw my hat in at a large Nationals type event.

    I really don't appreciate your post telling me that I'm "throwing negativity" at them. I'm not burning bridges, I'm conveying relevant information about Wizkids in a topic which has turned into talking about problems with the erratically released rulings, and suggestions to "just e-mail them reasonably with a list of etc...." I'm just saying, I've been reading all of this and also particpating at a time, for five years now. I'm allowed to have had experiences that I then simply state, to try to help give people a sense of the situation who are newer into it, so that they don't set their expectations too high and get disappointed.

    I obviously love Wizkids or I wouldn't be giving them I can't even calculate how much money every year... think a case of every HeroClix release and a case of every Dice Masters, plus the starters sets for both games for every set I get cases for (and some that are only starters in HeroClix), I buy lots of product in playing 1-3 Wizkids events a week, at least one being a sealed or rainbow draft, and I buy product when I'm hanging out at the comic store and just bored all of the time, too - a couple of boosters here and there when I'm at the store 1-3+ times a week, of both games.

    That being said, I want to reiterate feeling that it was unfair to accuse me of "throwing negativity." I've had experience both myself, and talked to people directly who have, and I think that it's important that people are realistic and tamper expectations whenever they enter into any endeavor, an e-mail campaign to Wizkids included. It's totally fair to let someone know that they shouldn't expect any sort of message back, and Wizkids is obviously aware of their level of communication. I'm not making a value judgement on whether they should or shouldn't be, and whether it makes them a better or worse company, I'm just saying that they tend to be more private and less communicative with the public, which is true, and I can't imagine they'd be able to disagree with when faced with evidence, even without. They're a business, and have every right to run it as they wish. If I could run the company/rule the world/always have my way, Wizkids would be better about Dice Masters updates and quality control, but because I'm not, I just play the games and temper expectations on those fronts, which is ok, because I still have lots of fun playing the games.

    When somebody is literally stating a fact based on empirical evidence, they aren't being negative or positive, they're simply stating a fact... based on empirical evidence. I'm not being rude, as I'm not making any judgement about it, I'm just... I already explained. I just don't like having to defend myself every time I don't post "Wizkids I love you you're perfect."

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by cbone3 View Post
    Balance in this stuff is important. Tearing down or kissing up to WizKids will do little. We need to be honest about problems without attacking.

    My advice: templating is incredibly important and is a huge part of M:tG's success. WizKids should emulate that.
    what do you mean by templating? I obviously understand the word itself, but I'm not quite sure what YOU mean in THIS instance about THIS topic. Thanks.

    I'm being serious, by the way, not sarcastic. I agree with your whole post otherwise, and I would bet I agree with templating, but I'm not sure the exact definition in this, gaming, sense. Thanks

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    what do you mean by templating? I obviously understand the word itself, but I'm not quite sure what YOU mean in THIS instance about THIS topic. Thanks.

    I'm being serious, by the way, not sarcastic. I agree with your whole post otherwise, and I would bet I agree with templating, but I'm not sure the exact definition in this, gaming, sense. Thanks
    In yugioh, we had a very similar problem. It was addressed by adding PSCT. That stands for problem solving card text. Essentially, every effect written after a certain date was written in one particular way, and how semicolons interacted with effect text became standardized so people could resolve timing issues. We have had an example of this in dicemasters already, with the transition to the word overcrush. Yugioh had the same thing as well, using the word "piercing" to indicate trample/overcrush.

    Did it solve every problem? No, but its now at a point where everyone who bothers to learn PSCT can properly interpret the effects of 99.999999% of the cards written with PSCT.

    That, is basically what Scum is talking about.

  19. #19
    Osprey is correct. "Templating" is using very specific ways of writing rules and only one definition of a word ("character" @#$%!!!!!). This helps make rules-related questions significantly easier (and logical) to resolve.

    I'm not sure if Osprey mistook who made the comment or if he just doesn't like me...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    I show plenty of love to Wizkids, in the way they want love showed the most, through money spent. I'm not throwing negativity, and it's not fair to just conjure up that word anytime someone doesn't like what someone else says, because of the weight it carries on this website. I'm allowed to have had experiences and voice them. I'm not saying anything awful about Wizkids, just stating a fact that there has been a pattern of uncommunicative customer service in the past, and that I've basically just given into having fun playing the game(s, including HeroClix), but I'm not going to ever throw my hat in at a large Nationals type event.
    I agree with this sentiment and do appreciate the general appeal to positivity. However, the criticism I've seen expressed by people on this site isn't cruel, malicious, or personal. It tends to be honest frustration but hopeful for improvement. I don't know that silencing that helps the situation, especially given that many people (Randy included) are leaving the game due to these issues.

  21. #21
    It certainly makes me want to leave the game.

    The Jocasta ruling is one thing, but I'm honestly more surprised by the S.H.I.E.L.D Agent - Need to Know Basis ruling that seems insane.

    http://www.thereservepool.com/thread...2016#post22016

  22. #22
    Looking at the spoiled cards for WoL, it seems that they are introducing even more ways to confuse things. "Use 1" generic energy to pay for an effect instead of the standard "Pay 1". After being told several sets ago that they aim to word things better, they continue to get even more convoluted.

    I was interested in the game because of Marvel and the decent initial release of Quarriors, with no desire for anything else, and ended up dumping far too much money into the game with the other sets. This time around, I'll cherry pick good cards and will no longer focus on completing a set, or buying in bulk and giving them undeserved money, when I can get the few decent cards per set cheaper online. Local stores lose sales, WK lose sales, everyone loses.

    I'll pick up TMNT, and I seriously hope they decide to release more stand alone complete sets so I can try to get some friends to actually play without dropping a fortune just to be on equal ground (they all stopped after deciding there's no way they will continue buying new sets at such a rapid pace).

    I have never bought into any collectable type game on principle, and the only reason I even thought about buying into this game was they said all sets would be usable with each other, with none of that OOP nonsense. If they turn around and decide to rotate stuff out, I'm done. With the game, and anything WK will ever produce. With the coming release they've had 7 chances - how many more are they going to need? When is it enough for any reasonable person?

  23. #23
    Guys, it's nothing that needs to be discussed in public. It's Randy's thought process and the like that went into it, and that's all that needs to be said.

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