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Thread: Article: Infiltrate! The Untapped Potential

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  3. #3
    I thought the defense modifiers were not affected by Antman Global.

  4. #4
    Phoenix had the drawback of being 100% available to your opponent. Since Patch is doing the doubling, you limit that to just you.

    But yes, modifiers aren't affected by the global. However, you can flip him before you pay to double his attack and you're still getting a nice chunk of damage.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Phoenix had the drawback of being 100% available to your opponent. Since Patch is doing the doubling, you limit that to just you.

    But yes, modifiers aren't affected by the global. However, you can flip him before you pay to double his attack and you're still getting a nice chunk of damage.
    I really don't buy the argument of Phoenix being available to your opponent making the strategy less powerful. Globals, in my opinion, are included for 2 reasons:

    1. They just tag along on a card that you want to use regardless
    2. You know you can abuse them much better than your opponent can.

    Not all teams are created equal, and the combo being available to an opponent who is not playing whatever you have brought to take advantage of the global will almost certainly not be able to use it properly to beat you. This has just been in my head for a while and I haven't seen anyone actually point this out. I fail to see how this is a real drawback instead of a perceived one, and no one has been able to convince me otherwise as of yet.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I really don't buy the argument of Phoenix being available to your opponent making the strategy less powerful. Globals, in my opinion, are included for 2 reasons:

    1. They just tag along on a card that you want to use regardless
    2. You know you can abuse them much better than your opponent can.

    Not all teams are created equal, and the combo being available to an opponent who is not playing whatever you have brought to take advantage of the global will almost certainly not be able to use it properly to beat you. This has just been in my head for a while and I haven't seen anyone actually point this out. I fail to see how this is a real drawback instead of a perceived one, and no one has been able to convince me otherwise as of yet.
    Wolverine being a commonly ran card does make it more likely that they can/will flip the combo on you since it's the only card they have to run to make it work. If the combo relied on something more obtuse that couldn't be slammed into almost any team I'd see your point.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Wolverine being a commonly ran card does make it more likely that they can/will flip the combo on you since it's the only card they have to run to make it work. If the combo relied on something more obtuse that couldn't be slammed into almost any team I'd see your point.
    In that situation the argument falls apart of course, but part of playing this game is planning. If you were expecting a fair amount of people to be playing wolverine, I don't think you would bring this combo. I've been thinking about this whole ruling a lot, mainly because I didn't agree with it (which is old news by now, time to accept it and move on) and I think this falls into a weird category that exists in many other games but I don't think Dicemasters has really had until now. The category that holds the kind of decks/teams that can easily and routinely tear up locals but will not do well at any larger, more serious events. Kind of like burn decks in Yugioh. 8 person locals? No problem. 50 person event? Dead in the water.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorback View Post
    I thought the defense modifiers were not affected by Antman Global.
    Depends on the type of Modifiers.

    Modifiers, like infiltrate, that are applied at a single instance, and have a defined end period, are affected by Ant-Man. Modifiers that are While active effects, such as Super Rare Groot, effectively continuously reapply their effects as long as the source remains active. These while active modifiers can't be "flipped" with Ant-Man or stollen with Mystic box, because they aren't given to the characters they are affecting, but instead are applied to those characters from the source.

    It seems an oddity, I admit, but this distinction of Modifiers helps to keep these "auras"intact, and prevents you from breaking up this ability to apply differently to different "targets".

    In other words, while Ant-Man and Mystic Box's interaction with these modifiers seems messy, the alternative is messier.

  9. #9
    For more information, see here:
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=2118

    "Static" modifiers are not swappable, "Applied" modifiers are. Infiltrate is an "applied" modifier.

  10. #10
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    Great work, @ninjahonor . There are so many things you can do with infiltrate! Even Patch himself! Make him an Avenger, flip a/d and his ability procs on himself if unblocked.

    @riothebeast , not quite undefeated, but thanks for the nod.

    @Osprey , you have a point in that I was only concerned with what I wanted to do when I ran it at gencon. My opponents had to adjust their plan to take advantage. Most players, I think, would not have seen that. Now, things are likely different. I mean, several of my opponents got it halfway in just a game or two and bought infiltrate away from me. And since you see what's the worst case scenario for you, I immediately thought they'd use it against me. If you bring a burn or direct damage strategy, Infiltrate won't help you much, but if you bring a hammer like uncommon Wasp? Or overcrush? Or something unblockable? Now, it takes more chops than first or second time playing to be able to see that, adjust, and make it work. But these are the same concepts as need be discussed in the pxg, magic missile, bewd, and red dragon conversations, right? If I bring pxg and you bring prismatic spray, you just stole it from me. If I bring Phx force Wolverine and you being jinzo, you're making me pay for using it, but it's available to you. My point in drawing attention to the fact that it's available to the opponent in my article was to help everyone see how fragile the combo was (or perhaps, could be). Fun but fragile. And now there are additional (and better) ways to make it happen. Until Mera's global. Then you'll need Zombie Magneto in the field first.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by riothebeast View Post
    I would hardley say this us untapped potential. Gencon Phoenix fast ball special went undefeated.
    I'd disagree. JT acknowledged the consistency issues and I've seen several people try to make something work with infiltrate since AoU came out and it co to yes to struggle with consistency issues (as many combo teams do. I think untapped potential is totally applicable ("undiscovered possibility" or "new use" would not be). Personally. I think the key is getting extra rerolls to make sure the dice in your combo go off at the right time.

  12. #12
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    @Indy Mon , yes! And that is another point to @Osprey 's argument as well. It's loads of fun to play with these combos, but it's a bit like a glass cannon. It's hard enough to make the combo go off, but to try to steal the combo if your opponent brings it? That is something I must concede is more a perceived threat than realized, most of the time.

    To the OP point though, we're only really discussing Avengers and Phx Force so far. What about running mask X-men and making Gladiator an Xman to throw Teamwork on top of his ability? Or make rare Starhawk Justice League before fielding JL characters? There is a ton to toy around with. I agree, untapped potential.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Mon View Post
    I'd disagree. JT acknowledged the consistency issues and I've seen several people try to make something work with infiltrate since AoU came out and it co to yes to struggle with consistency issues (as many combo teams do. I think untapped potential is totally applicable ("undiscovered possibility" or "new use" would not be). Personally. I think the key is getting extra rerolls to make sure the dice in your combo go off at the right time.
    Reroll is one of the biggest things to help, next to PXG. I've been running Infiltrate with Patch, Rare Injrction Fairy Lily, an Ant-man's global with amazing success. Take Cover allows some D pumping before flipping, and even on lvl 1/2 the IFL is easily swinging for 14+ unblockable by turn 3/4 without much need for ramp. PXG keeps the bag sidekick free, and Red Skull or Scarlet Witch allows energy rolling consistency. Low fielding costs and purchase prices add to the efficiency, and there's plenty of open slots for utility and adaptability.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    For more information, see here:
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=2118

    "Static" modifiers are not swappable, "Applied" modifiers are. Infiltrate is an "applied" modifier.
    Thank you @pk2317 ! I was coming here to ask just for this.

    Thanks @Shadowmeld for your response.

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