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Thread: How much is First Turn worth?

  1. #1

    How much is First Turn worth?

    It's generally agreed that Dice Masters has a built-in First Turn advantage; there's just no downside to going first.

    Suppose that instead of rolling for first turn, each player secretly bids an amount of life to cede to their opponent for the privilege of taking the first turn. As an example, if Andrew bids 2 life and Bob bids 3, Bob will go first but loses 3 life. In the case of a tie, roll off for first turn (and life loss).

    Your bid for life loss will likely depend on what sort of teams you and your opponent are playing, but it's possible that players will settle on some "fair" number (2? 1?) If this is the case, it may be possible to just set a fixed amount of life penalty for the first turn and let players roll off to choose.

    Anyhow, how much life would you be willing to lose in exchange for the first turn?

  2. #2
    Really depends on the team. There are some teams I would bid 15 life against easily, because they plan on killing you in one big swing so life doesn't really matter.

  3. #3
    If I go first and roll 4 sidekicks, or even 1 sidekick and fists/bolts with the right globals, that is 4 damage.

    That is what I would bid.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    If I go first and roll 4 sidekicks, or even 1 sidekick and fists/bolts with the right globals, that is 4 damage.

    That is what I would bid.
    Except you wouldn't be able to deal that damage first turn...

    1.2.2
    Games in Matches: The player who goes first in a tournament game may not attack

    http://dicemasters.com/wp-content/up...t-Document.pdf

  5. #5
    i havent seen too much high tier game play but in the casual games i play i have not noticed a huge difference...with that said, there is a huge difference if the deck i am playing is based around buying the basic action cards (magic missile, power bolt)...though if i notice the two basic actions and see a first turn buy of said actions, i will buy them on my turn to keep them from buying as many of them.

  6. #6
    It really depends on the game I am playing. Casually not much. Competitively it means a whole lot

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Palto1826 View Post
    i havent seen too much high tier game play but in the casual games i play i have not noticed a huge difference...with that said, there is a huge difference if the deck i am playing is based around buying the basic action cards (magic missile, power bolt)...though if i notice the two basic actions and see a first turn buy of said actions, i will buy them on my turn to keep them from buying as many of them.
    I agree. Action dice buying is the first thing that comes to mind. There are quite a few builds that you can foul up fairly easily by buying their action die first.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scenttii View Post
    Except you wouldn't be able to deal that damage first turn...

    1.2.2
    Games in Matches: The player who goes first in a tournament game may not attack

    http://dicemasters.com/wp-content/up...t-Document.pdf
    Whoa, that's a rule? I did not know that.

    My preferred rule? The player going second gets to field a sidekick from their bag at the start of the game.

  9. #9
    The weird thing about that rule is that you'd never attack with sidekicks on first turn unless you had a really specific roll and need that sidekick in your used to prep it.

  10. #10
    Going second has lost me a lot of close games always the "if I had one more turn " thing I think its a huge advantage

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    The weird thing about that rule is that you'd never attack with sidekicks on first turn unless you had a really specific roll and need that sidekick in your used to prep it.
    Actually, that depends highly on the meta. With formats that include PXG, you often want all of your dice at your disposal to maintain ramp and expensive purchases early on, and then follow up with global support. A sidekick is always a sidekick, but a mask for ramp can become a relentless lethal, so sidekicks on the board are sacrificing flexibility and economy.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by digitallimit View Post
    Actually, that depends highly on the meta. With formats that include PXG, you often want all of your dice at your disposal to maintain ramp and expensive purchases early on, and then follow up with global support. A sidekick is always a sidekick, but a mask for ramp can become a relentless lethal, so sidekicks on the board are sacrificing flexibility and economy.
    Hence in your used to prep it. You'd have needed to roll both a sidekick and a mask, and have the mask be better spent on prepping the sidekick than being used in a purchase. It's not exactly the most common set of circumstances.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Hence in your used to prep it. You'd have needed to roll both a sidekick and a mask, and have the mask be better spent on prepping the sidekick than being used in a purchase. It's not exactly the most common set of circumstances.
    If the meta has PXG and no BEWD global, and you're going first? You're attacking first turn with any sidekicks you roll. Saying "It's not exactly the most common set of circumstances" is far from true. It's totally common. That's why there's a rule against it.

    You don't want your sidekick fielded if you're the one with momentum, if you're the one technically closest to lethal. One "energy" for one damage is great economy, and there's little to no risk when you're first.

  14. #14

  15. #15
    I would argue that first turn advantage means less in a casual setting than in high tier play. If you assume that both players are skilled and are capable of making the correct moves, the game will then boil down to: Luckier Rolls, Team Matchup and of course, whoever goes first.

  16. #16
    Going first is already an advantage. Your opponent is a turn back when its in my eyes. I get to set up my game first before they do.

  17. #17
    Since this is still a dice game I depend so much on the luck of my rolls, just like everyone else. When I seem to "need" first turn priority to win, I either don't get it or get unlucky rolls. I think your team should be just as prepared to win with first turn as with second.

    I primarily play rainbow and with that format I find some benefit with going second. Going second allows for you to respond to an opponent's move and make a more economic move. If you play like a jerk (and don't help out your opponent) and your opponent forgets a global like Ressurection or PXG turn one you gain a real advantage when you use it instead.

    I think going second removes some of the pressure and also allows for you to see more of the board before you make your first buy.

  18. #18

  19. #19
    I like the three dice idea for first player and the life bidding option. The 3 dice option is more elegant and lets newer players know what to do each time. The bidding can get confusing for new guys. I'll try some of these out at home and see how they work with the family.

  20. #20
    I haven't been able to test anything but I think my two preferred suggestions so far on easing first turn advantage would be that the second player gets one generic energy to spend on their first turn, or the first player gets a limited re-roll (say, can only re-roll two of their four dice).

  21. #21
    Its not playing like a jerk. Its a tournament. It's not your job to remind them on what they missed. If its a casual game then yes help them out as much. But when its tourney, everything is off the table.

  22. #22
    I was going to use another word besides jerk but I didn't want to violate any forum rules. Lol

    I agree it's not your job to help out an opponent, but I have seen quite a few games with experienced players forgetting how to properly use their energy. That includes some videos on The Reserve Pool.

    I see a possible benefit in going second to take advantage of mistakes made by your opponent.

  23. #23
    But you have the advantage going first with being a turn ahead

    What do you mean properly using their energy?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by monkeydishes View Post
    I primarily play rainbow and with that format I find some benefit with going second. Going second allows for you to respond to an opponent's move and make a more economic move... <snip>
    If you ignore the first turn, the player going first technically gets the "luxury" of going second.

    But now they're a turn behind... which is a strict disadvantage. Do you see how cut and dry first-turn advantage is?

  25. #25
    I never said that having first turn didn't have a clear-cut advantage I just see an acceptable strategy that you can use when you get second turn Out of all the games that I've played I can't remember winning or losing one just because I did or did not get to go first

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