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Thread: Black Manta: Artificial Gills

  1. #1

    Black Manta: Artificial Gills

    My opponent has Black manta active along with 2 other 1a/1d villain characters making his Black Manta a 3a/3d.

    He attacks with all 3 characters.

    I use my 3 1a/1d sidekicks to block all 3 attackers, 1 blocker per attacker.

    during the assign and resolve damage step at the end of the attack step, each of my opponents character dice has taken 1 damage each from my sidekick dice.

    since damage stays on the characters till cleanup step, what happens to the Black manta die that has taken 1 damage when you Assign and resolve damage before you clear all damage and end all effects.

    which is the correct outcome?

    1. Does Black manta die since he has 1 damage on him and the 2 others villain characters got ko'd from lethal damage?


    2. Does he survive because once he "gained" the +2a/+2d from the "now ko'd" villains that were active before the attack started?

  2. #2
    As soon as the other villains are KOd he loses the +1/+1s.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Yes. Since this is a "while" effect, it is persitent and lost upon the change in the board state. At the same time as the other villains are KO'd, he loses his buff and succumbs to his own damage.

  5. #5
    Wait a second. Manta goes back to the field. When damage resolved simultaneously during combat he was a 3/3 and took only one damage.

  6. #6
    Yes, but damage remains on the character until the end of the turn.

    So, as soon as the 1/1 villains are KO'd, he becomes a 1/1, at which point he has taken damage equal to or greater than his defence, and so he is also KO'd.

  7. #7
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion

    Akron, OH
    Blog Entries
    I have seriously missed something. When is level one black manta ever 1/1? His die reads 1/3, 2/4, 3/5 with a tfc of 3.

  8. #8
    Maybe thinking of Mystique: Raven Darkholme?

  9. #9

    That's what comes of taking the question at face value and not checking facts!


  10. #10

  11. #11

  12. #12
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion

    Akron, OH
    Blog Entries
    End result is the same as Necro and Scorpion have described. That's my take.

  13. #13

  14. #14
    Unfortunately, judges don't truly exist.

  15. #15
    I guess I'm confused by @JohnnyMagic 's question.

    Black Manta, at level 1, has 1A and 3D. At no time will an unbuffed sidekick KO Black Manta unless Black Manta had been damaged due to some other game effect prior to resolving combat.

    I'm further confused by @Necromanticer and @Scorpion0x17 's response. Damage occurs simultaneously. Baring an action or global ability, each character's stats are "set." Therefore, Black Manta would not lose his buffs until after the attack step comes to a close. Once the two other villains are gone, Manta's stats revert to printed levels, but that only happens after combat is resolved. Players can't say, "Well, I'm going to KO the two other villains first, and then we'll deal with Manta. Oh, look, he's lost +2A and +2D." It all happens simultaneously.

    Relevant quote from the War of Light rule book:
    • Assign Damage
    Both players assign damage. Damage occurs simultaneously. (In the rare case where it is relevant, the attacking player assigns first,
    although damage still resolves simultaneously.)
    During the End Step:
    All damage to all dice is cleared. All effects end (except “While active” and “effects that occur at the end of turn”).

  16. #16
    But damage doesn't *clear* until the end of the turn. So manta (or mystique or whoever) takes the damage, which doesn't KO him. But then his buffs disappear, and now his damage exceeds his (newly lowered) defense and he's out.

  17. #17
    Razorback - Yes damage happens at the same time. Concern I have is since damage stays on the "dice" and the other villains that make mant or mystique etc bigger get ko'd at the end of combat, the ongoing abilities of manta or mystique constantly check during the entire turn so those ko'd extra villians are not active anymore to grant the bonuses at end of combat after all damaged is assigned and all characters are ko'd due to lethal damage.

  18. #18
    After attackers and blockers are declared:

    Villain 1: 1/1 <--> 1/1 blocker
    Villain 2: 1/1 <--> 1/1 blocker
    Black Manta: 3/5 (+2/+2 from villains) <--> 3/3 blocker

    Manta has 3 damage applied to him. This damage does not clear until the end of the entire turn, not just combat.
    Villains 1 and 2 each have 1 damage applied to them.

    Attack step ends and villains 1 and 2 are KO'd. Black Manta reverts to 1/3. There is probably some debate as to whether Manta's stats revert at the end of the attack step or once you enter cleanup but either way there is still 3 damage that was applied to him during combat that has not gone away, his health is reduced to 0 and he is now KO'd.

  19. #19
    And this is why @alleyviper is the World Champion and I am not.

    Thanks for clarifying this for me and setting me straight!

  20. #20
    Another way to look at it, is each time a villain Dies, Black Manta Gets -1/-1. Then, when a villain dies, the -1/-1 trigger is applied, and he is then killed, because the -1/-1 has to be resolved before moving past the KO characters step.

  21. #21

  22. #22
    Applied effects have always been like that. They take a snapshot of the current state, then apply the effect. Once applied, they stay until cleared at the end of the turn. Static effects would be removed when the effect's cause is removed, like a character that has a while active bonus being removed from the field.

  23. #23

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by colwarden View Post
    Question about Black Manta David. Is his effect activated during both players' attack step, or only the attack step of David's team? Thank you!
    Either. It just says "during the Attack Step". You could even not attack/block with him and just ping him with Magic Missile during the attack step and his effect would process.

  25. #25

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