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Thread: Black Manta: Deep Sea Deviant - Multiple KOs

  1. #1

    Black Manta: Deep Sea Deviant - Multiple KOs



    Black Manta
    Deep Sea Deviant
    Retaliation - If one of your Villains is KO'd, deal 1 damage to your opponent for each of your active Villains.

    When Black Manta is active and multiple Villains are KO'd how do you calculate retaliation damage dealt?

    This came up at an event earlier today. My opponent was saying that after combat damage is dealt, Black Manta's Retaliation triggers for each KO'd villain individually. He was also saying that when calculating the damage dealt to move one villain to the KO area and then count each villain still in the attack zone including those that had received enough damage to be KO'd.

    Example:
    1 Black Manta, 1 Joker, 1 Harley, 1 Cheetah
    Joker, Harley, and Cheetah receive enough combat damage to be KO'd. Black Manta is still active.
    Move Joker to the Prep zone. Trigger Retaliation = 3 damage (Black Manta, Harley, Cheetah)
    Move Harley to the Prep zone. Trigger Retaliation = 2 damage (Black Manta, Cheetah)
    Move Cheetah to the Prep zone. Trigger Retaliation = 1 damage (Black Manta)
    Total of 6 damage

    It was ruled in his favor with the following ruling from WizKids
    Retaliation

    2) I have 2 Cyborg dice and a Superman dice on the field. Both of my cyborg dice get KOd, first one, then the other one at a time. How much damage will my opponent be taking?
    2) Your opponent will take 1 damage, twice, for 2 damage total.

  2. #2
    They all get KO'd at the same time. Then Retaliation triggers.

    You look at what's still active, and determine the damage from that. In your example with Cheetah, Joker and Harley. You deal a total of 3 damage.

  3. #3
    The proof is in the "C" part for this ruling.http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...&p=10434#p9766

    You can't choose to have the KO'd go in an order that triggers retaliation as though the others are not KO'd. They are all KO'd.

  4. #4
    Black Manta would deal only 1 damage.

    Because he is the only active Villain after Cheetah, Joker, and Harley are all KO'd.

    I think.

  5. #5
    Pertaining to Black Manta's ability, the triggering of Retaliation is based on how the affiliated characters are KO'd. If an affiliated character is KO'd by non-combat damage, you would check the board state (i.e. number of active Villains) after each KO then apply the damage from Retaliation. If multiple affiliated characters are KO'd by combat damage, you would check the board state after all KOs are resolved (which is simultaneous) then apply the Retaliation.

    So in your example, the KO'ing of Cheetah, Joker and Harley by combat damage would occur simultaneously and at that time, only Black Manta would be active. Hence, the opponent is dealt 1 damage (concurring with Scorpion).

    In the Superman/Cyborg ruling, there is no stipulation in Superman's ability that the total amount of damage applied is based on the number of active affiliated characters. Hence, each Cyborg KO'd deals 1 damage.

  6. #6
    I still think it would be 3 damage dealt to the opponent from Black Manta's Retaliation. It triggers the effect 3 times because 3 villains were KO'd and Black Manta was still active(the only villain left in the field). He would do 1 damage 3 times, 1 for each villain KO'd.

  7. #7
    It says active villains. They would all be KO'ed and he would be the only one active. Damage is simultaneous. Unless you Blue Eyes your characters one by one.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Black Manta would deal only 1 damage.

    Because he is the only active Villain after Cheetah, Joker, and Harley are all KO'd.

    I think.
    Correct

    Unless he Blue Eyes one by one.

  9. #9
    I'm pretty sure Retaliation would deal 3 total damage here. Since Black Manta is still active, he'd deal the damage for each Villain that was Knocked Out counting himself only for the Retaliation, since he's the only remaining bad guy.

  10. #10
    It's one of those situations where the rulings we have don't really clarify how Black Manta's Retaliation works exactly, other than in specific cases, so it's hard to generalise from them. And there is a degree of ambiguity, and possible contradiction, depending on whether Black Manta Retaliation works differently to other Retaliation or not (which it definitely does, by to what degree?!)

  11. #11
    I've submitted the question to WizKids Rules Forum. Hopefully they will answer before our Rainbow Draft Weekend in two weeks. Otherwise I guess we play it as ruled by the local TO which makes him a really powerful draft choice.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by crambaza View Post
    The proof is in the "C" part for this ruling.http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...&p=10434#p9766

    You can't choose to have the KO'd go in an order that triggers retaliation as though the others are not KO'd. They are all KO'd.
    KO happens simultaneously. (See the link for the official Wizkids answer.) This is an IF, not WHEN, condition. If 3 were KO'd, then 1 was. If 19 were KO'd, then 1 was. If 1 was KO'd, then 1 was. It's not counting how many, just whether or not it happened. That's how I've always read it. If Black Manta is the only one left standing after any villains have been KO'd, it's 1 damage from Retaliation.

  13. #13
    All other instances of Retaliation on character cards in the JUL set are worded the same way and differently then Black Manta.

    In fact...the "Lexicon" section at the end of the Justice League rulebook defines Retaliation as working the exact same way as it is worded on all other cards.

    I think that Wizkids just screwed up here...either Black Manta was supposed to work like Retaliation does on all other card and is defined in the rulebook...or...Black Manta's ability was not supposed to be tied to the Retaliation mechanic at all...becuase it is distinctly different.

  14. #14
    Figured it be 1. Unless they Blue Eyes Global 1 by 1 in the main step, then the damage would increase. But if they are KO'ed all at the same time in the attack step and only Black Manta is left, then 1 damage.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pishposh View Post
    I've submitted the question to WizKids Rules Forum. Hopefully they will answer before our Rainbow Draft Weekend in two weeks. Otherwise I guess we play it as ruled by the local TO which makes him a really powerful draft choice.
    Well it *definitely* wouldn't be like your TO ruled, because the ruling @crambaza posted clearly says that combat damage is simultaneous and you can't "choose" the order.

    The only question is, would it be 1 damage (any number of Villains KO'd, 1 Active Villain = 1 damage) or 3 damage (3 Villains KO'd x 1 Active Villain = 3 damage).

  16. #16
    Here is another option...how about 0 damage?

    The card clearly says..."if 1 of your villians is KO'd...". Well...3 villians were KO'd. 3 does not equal 1. The card technically only has a condition if 1 villian is KOd...says nothing about any other scenario...

    ...Food for through...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatman View Post
    Here is another option...how about 0 damage?

    The card clearly says..."if 1 of your villians is KO'd...". Well...3 villians were KO'd. 3 does not equal 1. The card technically only has a condition if 1 villian is KOd...says nothing about any other scenario...

    ...Food for through...
    But one of your Villains was KO'd. And so was another one, and so was another one.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    But one of your Villains was KO'd. And so was another one, and so was another one.
    Yes...simultaneously...which equals 3.

    Just to be clear though...I wouldn't play it like that myself...I'd play it as 3 damage. However thete is definitely more of a chance of it being 0 then 6...and by the very strict wording of the card...0 may actually be what gets ruled.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatman View Post
    Yes...simultaneously...which equals 3.

    Just to be clear though...I wouldn't play it like that myself...I'd play it as 3 damage. However thete is definitely more of a chance of it being 0 then 6...and by the very strict wording of the card...0 may actually be what gets ruled.
    But its for active villains and the only one still standing is black manta which results in 1 damage. Everyone is Knocked out at the same time with only Black Manta standing as the final villain which again comes to 1 damage.

    It would make sense if this were the main step where you purposely KO your villains one by one. But in the attack step its all at once.

  20. #20
    Not exactly sure which comment to chime in here on so I'll just say: Remember the Casualties ruling. If multiple characters are knocked out by a single effect, it would only trigger Retaliation once. Combat damage is a single effect.

    So, if you have Black Manta out as your only villain and 4 villains get knocked out from getting blocked: Black Manta does 1 total in Retaliation damage.

  21. #21
    Retaliation doesn't say "When 1 of your..." but "If 1 of your...". This is a small difference, but since it's talking specifically about the instance and not the timeframe (like Casualties), I read it as 3 damage (in this case). The trigger is the villain being KOd, and it would trigger each time.

    There was a ruling on Good Guy Retaliation that had multiple heroes being KOd and multiple damage being dealt from it, even though it happened in the Attack Step. I just can't find it for some reason. (EDIT - I found it, and it's the same ruling that has been talked about for this entire post. I'm a numpty, but I still hold that it is 3 damage since we are looking at the instance of each KO due to the If>Then statement, and not a When>Then statement.)
    Last edited by OddballNarwhal; 09-09-2015 at 09:16 AM. Reason: I'm a maroon

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by OddballNarwhal View Post
    Retaliation doesn't say "When 1 of your..." but "If 1 of your...". This is a small difference, but since it's talking specifically about the instance and not the timeframe (like Casualties), I read it as 3 damage (in this case). The trigger is the villain being KOd, and it would trigger each time.

    There was a ruling on Good Guy Retaliation that had multiple heroes being KOd and multiple damage being dealt from it, even though it happened in the Attack Step. I just can't find it for some reason. (EDIT - I found it, and it's the same ruling that has been talked about for this entire post. I'm a numpty, but I still hold that it is 3 damage since we are looking at the instance of each KO due to the If>Then statement, and not a When>Then statement.)
    Bah.. ok, yeah, good guy retaliation ruling suggests that this is contrary to the Casualties ruling. What I get for just post skimming...

    Perhaps you're onto something with the "if" vs "when".

  23. #23
    Totally on the same page with you @OddballNarwhal . The other argument I'll add is the fact that the card says "If 1 villian is KO'd". To me, the fact that it says "1" is significant...this implies that the number of KOs matters.

    If it said "If a villin is KO'd" that would be different, becuase it would be a binary thing. You'd ask yourself "was a villian KO'd?...yes...ability triggers once".

    To me...it is either 3 or 0. If we read the card by very strict grammer rules, then I think 0 is also still a possible way this card could be rulled. 3 does not equal 1, and the card really only tells us what to do if 1 villian is KO'd, we don't know what to do if 2 or 3 or 7 villians are KO'd.

    The one downside of all this debate...and any debate really...is that we are trying extrapolate meaning based on rules of grammer from a company that has shown evidence of not really being that strict with thier use of language. So...perhaps it is not worth the debate...

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatman View Post
    Totally on the same page with you @OddballNarwhal . The other argument I'll add is the fact that the card says "If 1 villian is KO'd". To me, the fact that it says "1" is significant...this implies that the number of KOs matters.

    If it said "If a villin is KO'd" that would be different, becuase it would be a binary thing. You'd ask yourself "was a villian KO'd?...yes...ability triggers once".

    To me...it is either 3 or 0. If we read the card by very strict grammer rules, then I think 0 is also still a possible way this card could be rulled. 3 does not equal 1, and the card really only tells us what to do if 1 villian is KO'd, we don't know what to do if 2 or 3 or 7 villians are KO'd.

    The one downside of all this debate...and any debate really...is that we are trying extrapolate meaning based on rules of grammer from a company that has shown evidence of not really being that strict with thier use of language. So...perhaps it is not worth the debate...
    I think that between the ruling on Retaliation for the JL characters and WK's sometimes inconsistent use of language, we can assume that it isn't "only deal damage if exactly ONE character is knocked out". Then again, you know what they say about assume. They say... um... it's a bad idea.

  25. #25

    Black Manta : Retaliation

    So if we follow the order of operations for this game and when we can resolve damage. All characters KO at the same time, when combat damage is resolved. Therefore we can conclude the following.
    Active (fielded) Villain character(s) (not character die or dice) * 1 (retaliation) = outcome

    i.e. Active Characters (after damage has been resolved.)
    1x joker, 1x Harley, 1x cheetah, 1x black manta
    KO'd characters
    1x Toad, 1x sabretooth

    4 * 1 = 4

    Not:
    Active (fielded) Villain character(s) (not character die or dice) * 1 (retaliation) * number of KO'd Villian/Affiliation Die/Dice = outcome

    i.e. Active Characters (after damage has been resolved.)
    1x joker, 1x Harley, 1x cheetah, 1x black manta
    KO'd characters
    1x Toad, 1x sabretooth

    4 * 1 * 2 = 8
    Last edited by Thegrimmone; 07-17-2017 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Clarification

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