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Thread: Invisible Stalker: Greater Elemental vs. Breath Weapon & Vulnerability ; Lord of D.

  1. #1

    Invisible Stalker: Greater Elemental vs. Breath Weapon & Vulnerability ; Lord of D.



    QUESTION 1
    Player A plays basic action Vulnerability, choosing Player B's active Invisible Stalker: Greater Elemental. Player A assigns Copper Dragon: Lesser Dragon to attack and pays 1 to use Breath Weapon. Does Player A get to decide which effect happens first, dealing 1 damage to Invisible Stalker and KOing it due to Vulnerability, before Player B can use Invisible Stalker's ability to prevent all damage from a character? Why or why not?

    QUESTION 2
    If Player A has Lord of D.: Dragon Protector active, does it prevent Player B using Invisible Stalker's ability to prevent Copper Dragon dealing damage, i.e., does Invisible Stalker target? Why or why not?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestfallen View Post
    QUESTION 1
    Player A plays basic action Vulnerability, choosing Player B's active Invisible Stalker: Greater Elemental. Player A assigns Copper Dragon: Lesser Dragon to attack and pays 1 to use Breath Weapon. Does Player A get to decide which effect happens first, dealing 1 damage to Invisible Stalker and KOing it due to Vulnerability, before Player B can use Invisible Stalker's ability to prevent all damage from a character? Why or why not?
    This is a good question. My reading would be that the Active Player resolves all their simultaneous abilities before the Inactive Player resolves any of theirs. The damage to Invisible Stalker and to Player B are simultaneous, and we can (functionally) treat Invisible Stalker as having 1 Defense and therefore being KO'd as soon as they take damage.

    Thinking about this some more, I see Invisible Stalker's ability as a Reactive ability, similar to Hulk: Green Goliath or Jade Giant. Even though Invisible Stalker is KO'd, since its ability triggers on the Player taking damage it would still go even though it was KO'd at the same time.


    QUESTION 2
    If Player A has Lord of D.: Dragon Protector active, does it prevent Player B using Invisible Stalker's ability to prevent Copper Dragon dealing damage, i.e., does Invisible Stalker target? Why or why not?
    I do not believe Invisible Stalker targets. It is a protective/preventative ability, it does not in any way "target" the Copper Dragon.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    This is a good question. My reading would be that the Active Player resolves all their simultaneous abilities before the Inactive Player resolves any of theirs. The damage to Invisible Stalker and to Player B are simultaneous, and we can (functionally) treat Invisible Stalker as having 1 Defense and therefore being KO'd as soon as they take damage.

    Thinking about this some more, I see Invisible Stalker's ability as a Reactive ability, similar to Hulk: Green Goliath or Jade Giant. Even though Invisible Stalker is KO'd, since its ability triggers on the Player taking damage it would still go even though it was KO'd at the same time.
    Hmm...

    I was going to say that I believe this is incorrect...

    Well, I think it is still partially incorrect...

    But...

    In order for the inactive damage to benefit from Invisible Stalker's protection they must move it to the Used Pile. That is the cost of activating the ability.

    Now, if the damage and the resulting KO is processed before the inactive player gets and opportunity to activate Invisible Stalker, then they cannot.

    But is that the case?

    Does the inactive player get the opportunity to 'interrupt' the processing of the damage and the resulting KO?

    If the latter is true then the Stalker goes to Used and cannot be KO'd?

    But if the former is true then the Stalker is KO'd and cannot be be sent to Used?

    This is one for the rules forum, I feel.

    And hopefully they answer it, because the answer could, potentially, offer a great insight in to how these interactions are intended to play out.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    I do not believe Invisible Stalker targets. It is a protective/preventative ability, it does not in any way "target" the Copper Dragon.
    I absolutely agree with this.

    (But it would be worth also putting this to the rules forum for clarification)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I absolutely agree with this.

    (But it would be worth also putting this to the rules forum for clarification)
    I did submit this to the forum but I've never had a question answered so may never know.

  6. #6
    The Stalker Says Prevent, right? Meaning you can interrupt other game effects with it?

    I guess the Question is really, do Prevent and redirect abilities resolve before When Damaged abilities.

    The way i'm seeing damage working more and more, is that there is an assign damage and a resolve damage.

    Damage prevention and redirection abilities should probably be triggered and resolved BEFORE actual damage resolution.

    Then after damage resolves you trigger and resolve When damaged abilities.

    With this sort of breakdown, Stalker would go to used, after being assigned damage from breath weapon, but before any characters are knocked out. He then prevents all damage from the Copper Dragon, which then doesn't resolve because it was prevented.

    There is substantial evidence that backs up this reading, the simplest is that Prevention has to occur before damage resolves, otherwise, you're not preventing, you're "taking back". However, a close read to the rulebook will see mention of assigning and resolving damage, which is where I, and others, have begun to accumulate this breakdown of the steps.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    The Stalker Says Prevent, right? Meaning you can interrupt other game effects with it?
    ...
    There is substantial evidence that backs up this reading, the simplest is that Prevention has to occur before damage resolves, otherwise, you're not preventing, you're "taking back". However, a close read to the rulebook will see mention of assigning and resolving damage, which is where I, and others, have begun to accumulate this breakdown of the steps.
    I think this is probably true. Abilities such as Deflection and Vibranium Shield globals ("Pay [1]. Prevent 1 damage to a character or player") and Doomcaliber Knight ("When an opponent uses an action die, you must cancel the effect and knock out this monster") seem to assume that those abilities may react to damage before it resolves.

  8. #8
    Exactly, thus Invisible stalker my send himself to the used pile BEFORE he ever actually takes any damage from breath weapon.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    The way i'm seeing damage working more and more, is that there is an assign damage and a resolve damage.
    LOL. I seem to recall you arguing against that interpretation with me. Or it may have been someone else. But, either way, I've been saying that this is how damage assignment and resolution works for a long time.

    Anyway...

    Having put some more thought in to this particular case, I agree with the apparent consensus here.

    Invisible Stalker's ability is "damage prevention", and can, therefore, be used to 'interrupt' damage assignment and resolution. Meaning that, in this instance, the Inactive Player may move his Invisible Stalker to Used, to prevent the damage dealt by the Copper Dragon, before the Invisible Stalker is KO'd.

    One question that remains is does Invisible Stalker prevent the Breath Weapon damage dealt to the other characters, or just that dealt to the player?

  10. #10
    It seems clear that the stalker prevents "all damage from a character" so long as that character damages you.

    Now for me the question is, since we're in the attack step, can I send the Stalker to the used, to prevent all damage from BOTH breath weapon AND combat?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    It seems clear that the stalker prevents "all damage from a character" so long as that character damages you.

    Now for me the question is, since we're in the attack step, can I send the Stalker to the used, to prevent all damage from BOTH breath weapon AND combat?
    Seconded. If Copper Dragon goes unblocked, does Invisible Stalker also prevent that combat damage, effectively sending it to Used without dealing any damage? The wording lends itself to this interpretation.

  12. #12
    (Ok, maybe not just one question then. LOL)

    And (if we ignore the Invulnerability interaction), does it matter when you send Invisible Stalker to Used?

    That is, if you wait until the unblocked Dragon deals you Combat Damage and then send Invisible Stalker to Used, does that undo the damage you took from it's Breath Weapon?

    (I would say not)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    And (if we ignore the Invulnerability interaction), does it matter when you send Invisible Stalker to Used?

    That is, if you wait until the unblocked Dragon deals you Combat Damage and then send Invisible Stalker to Used, does that undo the damage you took from it's Breath Weapon?

    (I would say not)
    I would suspect not as well. It seems that you'd have to react to the breath weapon when it's paid or lose the opportunity.

  14. #14
    I love this card!
    here's a thread from a few months ago:
    http://www.thereservepool.com/thread...ing-play-group

    opponent attacks with 2 huge characters (if one of them has low defense, block it with stalker). everyone deals damage, stalker KO'S his blocked character, sac stalker to unblocked! I take 0 damage!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    It seems clear that the stalker prevents "all damage from a character" so long as that character damages you.

    Now for me the question is, since we're in the attack step, can I send the Stalker to the used, to prevent all damage from BOTH breath weapon AND combat?
    I would say yes, I don't see any reason, given how Stalker is worded, that you couldn't.


    The word "either" kind of mucks things up, as I could interpret Stalker two ways:

    1.) You may send Stalker to used, either when a character damages you from an ability or damages you during the attack step, to prevent damage.

    or

    2.) You may send Stalker to used and, in doing so, a character now does not deal damage to you either from an ability or in the attack step.


    Obviously 2.) just cuts off the Dragon at the knees but it could also mean that if my opponent fields Gobby then I can prevent that damage and then if Gobby attacks I just let him through for 0 damage as well.

    If it's 1.) (which I assume it is) there is nothing specifying that damage in the attack step has to be combat damage, nor does it specify that it's only one instance of damage. I think you could also move Stalker to used to prevent Nova from going off for any damage at all during the attack step.

  16. #16
    So i took the Text of his card connected some Colours in, to point out how he could work.


    While active, you may move this character to the used pile to prevent all damage from a character that damages you either with an ability or during the attack step.

    So for me it looks like, that you move him in the instant you take the damage from the character since "damages" means its damage goes to you "now". (i hope thats correct!?!)
    So since it is Damage that appears now i would think that you only prevent one time his damage. So for an example, Nova got pinged once and you send Invisible Stalker to the used, you will prevent only this one ping with 2 Damage to you. Next time your opponent can again ping Nova and deal damage to you.

    The last sentence i think includes that you can trigger Invisible stalker every time when an ability does it from a character or in the Attack Step when Damage is resolved.


    Am i correct or incorrect, who knows?!?But do i have flaws in my theory?

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