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Thread: Scarecrow - Fear Gas

  1. #1

    Scarecrow - Fear Gas

    question on this and if i played it correctly in our draft last night. the card reads:

    When fielded, choose a [lantern] color. While Scarecrow is active, when a die of that color is put into a player's Used Pile, Scarecrow deals 1 damage to that player.
    so if i pick red and my opponent buys a red lantern die, that die goes into the Used Pile. 1 damage right? and if he rolls energy on it and it eventually goes to used, 1 damage?

  2. #2
    Edit: I think , I don't know if I know, or if I think I don't think I know.
    Last edited by SarkhanMad; 09-24-2015 at 07:02 AM.

  3. #3
    oh, but i wouldn't something silly like that!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ONEone78 View Post
    question on this and if i played it correctly in our draft last night. the card reads:



    so if i pick red and my opponent buys a red lantern die, that die goes into the Used Pile. 1 damage right? and if he rolls energy on it and it eventually goes to used, 1 damage?
    So if I want to be REALLY technical and annoying, if I choose yellow, I suppose my opponent is taking damage when those Kobold dice go to the used pile too. The card just specifies dice color and not affiliation. Ugh.

  5. #5
    it does say choose a lantern color so i think that trumps the uber-technicality.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    If I have multiple Scarecrows in the field.... can I stack their when fielded on the same color? Same Purple each with 3 scarecrows, means that its 3 damage per die?

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Kyle Rayner: Dreamer
    When fielded, choose a**color. Characters who have that affiliation cannot block this turn.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SarkhanMad View Post
    Kyle Rayner: Dreamer
    When fielded, choose a**color. Characters who have that affiliation cannot block this turn.
    That is temporary and not While Active. I dont see a connection here.

  11. #11
    Woah guys, let's take a look back at an effect that we already know and understand when reading into this ability: Maria Hill

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...ia+hill#p16973

    Clearly, this style of effect only procs when abilities send characters to used or they are sent to used by attacking in.





    As far as how many instances of this effect may be active at once, we can once again return to a character we know: Deadman

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...deadman#p16283

    This is good, but it does not quite apply since it isn't technically a "while active" ability like Scarecrow... Let's look at another similar ability: The Joker

    >When fielded, choose an opponent's character card, cancelling all previous choices. Your opponent cannot field that character while The Joker is active.

    All instances of this effect clearly state that they cancel previous choices. Since Scarecrow does not include this explicit stipulation, it means that the color named persists until the effect ends via Scarecrow no longer being active. This means you can have 1 color named per die you field that remains active. The problem is that part of this ability is while active, but that part of the effect doesn't pertain to the naming of the color. As such, there is some discrepancy, but until we get a ruling, it is only seemly to play the effect as best it's written. Hopefully they'll clear this up, but until they do, it's some decent burn and gives you a reason to bring 2-3 Scarecrow dice to the table.

    (also, pair this with Mera's global for some removal and burn)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    That is temporary and not While Active. I dont see a connection here.
    field multiple Kyle's in one turn and choose multiple colors.

    the connection is that they both have you make choices without canceling previous choices.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Woah guys, let's take a look back at an effect that we already know and understand when reading into this ability: Maria Hill

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...ia+hill#p16973

    Clearly, this style of effect only procs when abilities send characters to used or they are sent to used by attacking in.





    As far as how many instances of this effect may be active at once, we can once again return to a character we know: Deadman

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...deadman#p16283

    This is good, but it does not quite apply since it isn't technically a "while active" ability like Scarecrow... Let's look at another similar ability: The Joker

    >When fielded, choose an opponent's character card, cancelling all previous choices. Your opponent cannot field that character while The Joker is active.

    All instances of this effect clearly state that they cancel previous choices. Since Scarecrow does not include this explicit stipulation, it means that the color named persists until the effect ends via Scarecrow no longer being active. This means you can have 1 color named per die you field that remains active. The problem is that part of this ability is while active, but that part of the effect doesn't pertain to the naming of the color. As such, there is some discrepancy, but until we get a ruling, it is only seemly to play the effect as best it's written. Hopefully they'll clear this up, but until they do, it's some decent burn and gives you a reason to bring 2-3 Scarecrow dice to the table.

    (also, pair this with Mera's global for some removal and burn)
    There is a dramatic difference between Maria Hill and Scarecrow, Scarecrow is active when you buy a Lantern die and put it in the used pile.

    Scarecrow can still trigger his ability, even when a die is on an energy face and goes to the used pile, because he is still active.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    There is a dramatic difference between Maria Hill and Scarecrow, Scarecrow is active when you buy a Lantern die and put it in the used pile.

    Scarecrow can still trigger his ability, even when a die is on an energy face and goes to the used pile, because he is still active.
    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that these effects are unrelated as they both strictly pertain to dice entering the used pile, but upon reflection:

    "Maria Hill needs to be a character for this ability to work, not just a character die (which she is always)."

    This differentiates Maria Hill from Scarecrow in that Scarecrow specifies "die" and so should proc whenever a specified die enters the used pile for any reason.

    TL;DR: I now agree with your interpretation, but not your explanation.

  15. #15
    This card is going to need a ruling. It's written so poorly that it creates unintended consequences.

    As written, I would rule that it deals damage when any die of the chosen color is placed in the Used Pile. In the rulebook (p.3), the corps logos are referred to as Lantern Symbols. Meaning the card reads as follows:

    When fielded, choose a [Lantern Symbol] color. While Scarecrow is active, when a die of that color is put into a player's Used Pile, Scarecrow deals 1 damage to that player.
    So what you're choosing is a color, not a symbol. The damage occurs when a die of that color is placed in the Used Pile. Compare this text to that of Dr. Jonathan Crane:

    When fielded, choose a [Lantern Symbol] color, replacing all previous choices. Characters with that [Lantern Symbol] cost 1 more to field while Scarecrow is active. (Doesn't replace your opponent's choices.)
    Setting aside the fact that the word "color" probably should have been omitted, it's clear that the effect here is tied to the chosen Lantern Symbol. On Fear Gas, it's tied to the color of the die. So in constructed, I can choose yellow and deal damage on Wolverine (AvX), Dwarf Cleric (BFF), Millennium Puzzle (YGO), etc.

    Here's why I think Fear Gas needs a ruling (and needs to be nerfed): There are too many variations on die color for it to be adjudicated consistently. Mogo (WoL), a member of the Green Lantern Corps, has white dice. Every member of the Indigo Tribe has different colored dice. Heck, can we even agree on which dice are indigo? Hopefully, when WK inevitably rules on Fear Gas, it'll be restricted to Lantern Symbols.

  16. #16
    I mean isn't it obvious that Fear Gas's intent was meant to hit a lantern color not a dice color.

    Otherwise you'll have people arguing over shades of yellow orange and blue indigo.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CBattles6 View Post
    This card is going to need a ruling. It's written so poorly that it creates unintended consequences.

    As written, I would rule that it deals damage when any die of the chosen color is placed in the Used Pile. In the rulebook (p.3), the corps logos are referred to as Lantern Symbols. Meaning the card reads as follows:


    So what you're choosing is a color, not a symbol. The damage occurs when a die of that color is placed in the Used Pile. Compare this text to that of Dr. Jonathan Crane:


    Setting aside the fact that the word "color" probably should have been omitted, it's clear that the effect here is tied to the chosen Lantern Symbol. On Fear Gas, it's tied to the color of the die. So in constructed, I can choose yellow and deal damage on Wolverine (AvX), Dwarf Cleric (BFF), Millennium Puzzle (YGO), etc.

    Here's why I think Fear Gas needs a ruling (and needs to be nerfed): There are too many variations on die color for it to be adjudicated consistently. Mogo (WoL), a member of the Green Lantern Corps, has white dice. Every member of the Indigo Tribe has different colored dice. Heck, can we even agree on which dice are indigo? Hopefully, when WK inevitably rules on Fear Gas, it'll be restricted to Lantern Symbols.
    I think anyone who tries to tell me it's colour of the dice and not lantern type, then tries to get me to take damage on a non lantern corp character is going to be veering into throat punch territory.

    That said I can see how it could be interpreted that way but in no way do I believe anyone will honestly believe that was the intent.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by KennedyHawk View Post
    I mean isn't it obvious that Fear Gas's intent was meant to hit a lantern color not a dice color.

    Otherwise you'll have people arguing over shades of yellow orange and blue indigo.
    Agreed. If Scarecrow can only name Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet, and Black - you can argue that your die isn't the color named.

    "It's not blue, it is teal. It's not orange, it's amber."

  19. #19
    @KennedyHawk @Strange Dude @Camalott

    I completely agree with all of you, but I'm just telling you how the card is written. As strong as your urge to throat-punch may be, what's your basis to rule otherwise? An opinion of "intent" -- even one that may be widely held -- doesn't trump a logical interpretation of the card text. Like I said, it needs a ruling, but as we sit here today, Fear Gas triggers on non-WoL dice.

  20. #20
    I think when they use the phrase "that color" they are referring directly back to the first sentence, where "color" is being used strictly to refer to an affiliation. The reason the wording is different is because Dr. Jonathan Crane triggers only on characters with that affiliation, whereas Fear Gas triggers on dice with that affiliation (since Action Dice can now have an affiliation - Lantern Ring/Battery are either Green Lantern or Sinestro Corps dice in this set).

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CBattles6 View Post
    @KennedyHawk @Strange Dude @Camalott

    I completely agree with all of you, but I'm just telling you how the card is written. As strong as your urge to throat-punch may be, what's your basis to rule otherwise? An opinion of "intent" -- even one that may be widely held -- doesn't trump a logical interpretation of the card text. Like I said, it needs a ruling, but as we sit here today, Fear Gas triggers on non-WoL dice.
    Wait which way are you calling logical. I hope it's not the pick a dice color way, because that lacks a lot of gaming and common sense logic...

  22. #22
    See I don't see it like that it reads

    When fielded, choose a {} colour. So you choose a lantern corp colour which would be red lanterns or yellow lanterns etcWhile scarecrow is active, when a die of that colour (referring to the previous sentence where it specifies lantern corp colour) is put into a players used pile. Scarecrow deals 1 damage to that player.

    And here is my point the original mention of colour refers to lantern corps colour, thus the second mention of colour that refers to the initial mention also refers to lantern corps colour. So is a kobold dice a lantern corps yellow dice? No it is a yellow dice but without the lantern corps part is illegible for inclusion in the ability of the card.

    Sorry about the throat punch comment went all internet tough guy for a moment!

  23. #23
    Color, is not defined in any rule book other than as a description of basic action dice.

    As such, we cannot define color except in the terms framed by cards.

    Just because the English language defines color as a gradient of light spectrum, does not mean that in the lexicon of the game, color has the same meaning. In relation to this card, we choose a "color" of lantern symbol. Thus the color we chose is innately, a lantern color, not a chromatic designation of light or object.

    Remember, every term on a card isn't a dictionary word, it is a term of specific technical lingo. This lingo needs be defined, whether through rulebook definition, card text context or rules forum ruling. In this context, color is specifically defined as relating to Lantern Corps Affiliation.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Dude View Post
    See I don't see it like that it reads

    When fielded, choose a {} colour. So you choose a lantern corp colour which would be red lanterns or yellow lanterns etcWhile scarecrow is active, when a die of that colour (referring to the previous sentence where it specifies lantern corp colour) is put into a players used pile. Scarecrow deals 1 damage to that player.

    And here is my point the original mention of colour refers to lantern corps colour, thus the second mention of colour that refers to the initial mention also refers to lantern corps colour. So is a kobold dice a lantern corps yellow dice? No it is a yellow dice but without the lantern corps part is illegible for inclusion in the ability of the card.

    Sorry about the throat punch comment went all internet tough guy for a moment!
    I think you are good on the throat punching. I can't find anything in the rule prohibiting it.

  25. #25
    So @Shadowmeld and @Necromanticer agree that, unlike Maria Hill, Fear Gas triggers whenever a die with the chosen Lantern Affiliation enters Used via any path?

    Including but not limited to...

    1) Dice purchased
    2) Unblocked attackers
    3) Spent or unused energy (including dice moved from Out of Play (Transition) to Used at Cleanup)
    4) Polymorph? Is swapping "entering"?
    5) Dice sent there from Relaxing, etc.

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