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Thread: Does anybody else LIKE the release schedule?

  1. #1

    Does anybody else LIKE the release schedule?

    I hear lots of complaints, but I personally love it. Let's say there's a full set released every two months, on the nose (which it isn't exactly). That would be, if buying a case of two gravity feeds at the not very lowest, but not very nighest price of $65 per gravity feed (including shipping or whatever else is involved in getting it), for $130 total. That's $780 a year; literally just pennies over an average of $2 a day. Throw in a $15 Rainbow Draft every other week, playing at the store let's say 40/52 weeks, which seems like a lot but also potentially fair, and that's another $300 yearly, coming to $810 a year. $67.50 a month, or $2.18 (rounded up) daily.

    This isn't even factoring in selling off extras and duplicates, trading for what you need instead of buying it, etc..., which in my case at least, has been very helpful. I've managed to sell extras from Rainbow Draft pulls that pay for five, along with extra prizes I might win playing at multiple stores (it's so wonderful only needing one of each card).

    Even at its most expensive, with Tsarina, Gobby, Jocasta, etc... all on one team, the game is SO MUCH CHEAPER than even HeroClix with all of the entities and resources, and especially Magic, where you'll have 4x of eight different cards, each costing $200 on a deck, at least. I just don't want to get into hyperbole.

    All I'm saying is that we should be pretty thankful to have such a fun game at so cheap, especially compared to others. A draft is only a base price of $12 (usually $15), for three or so hours of fun, plus opening packs and keeping cards and prizes. That's a lot better than spending that money on a movie or something, for an hour less (at least), and not a chance of walking out with 4x what you spent, in prizes.

    There are so many great things, and the fact that you can pick and choose what sets you want to buy (I mean, obviously to be more competitive it's necessary to at least go for some singles, but nobody says anybody has to be competitive - I don't collect YGO and I know I have a slightly lower chance by narrowing my horizons, but each persons' fun is defined in its own way), and have on your team, etc...

    Anyway, I've just seen a lot of negativity over the pricing and to be serious... you buy a case and probably (newer sets) get four super rares. You could sell all four around $30 each and totally get your money back on a full CUR set plus extras to sell trade, and then buy the SRs you want, and only end up spending like $60-$80 total if you're wiley. I could go on, but the point is - there are a million ways to play the game, and even at the highest level buying six gravity feeds per set, the person is still spending much less than on any other addiction, like Magic, or hard drugs, or Magic, or HeroClix, or Magic and hard drugs, etc... I think the picture is clear.

    I just can't imagine a more entry-friendly priced game, especially from what I've heard from families, and when you have a good playgroup that can share / give away extra dice, you really ARE set.

  2. #2
    This is the best thing you've posted to the site yet. Nice post.

    The only reason I would favor a slower pace is to let the game "breathe" a little more. The meta with AoU as the most recent set had very little time to do much, with only the fan-driven Midwest Open as a meaningful event during that time. Brewing, strategizing, etcetera was relatively pointless as a result. I think that moving to something quarterly - even if they're slightly larger sets or something - would be beneficial for the game development.

    Hopefully the PDC will help drive that too.

    As for the rest, I can't disagree. It costs money, but so does any hobby. And you're assuming a maximum buy in with those numbers, and they're still reasonable enough for a hobby.

  3. #3
    Totally agree with you guys. I think it's at the sweet spot. Completionists don't have to break the bank (at least compared to any other collectible game). And non-completionists competitive players can buy common uncommon sets for very little then buy the handful of competitive rares and supers from each set.

    Kicker is what @Dave said. We need a more vibrant competitive scene. More official events. More PDC-like events. And more reporting of what is already happening (that's pretty much the singular goal of jimmysflowinglocks.party).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    The only reason I would favor a slower pace is to let the game "breathe" a little more.
    This is my main problem with the release schedule too.

    And it's made all the worse if you live in an area where you might get one organised event a month, if you're lucky.

    But, on the money point, it's all very well and good to break it down in to $2 per day, when you can comfortably afford it, and say that it's cheap.

    But, and I know it's very hard to understand this when you are not on this position yourself, for some people $2 per is NOT comfortably affordable.

    Perhaps $1, or $1.50 is. But not $2 or more.

    Should those people be excluded from the game?

    Should they be made to feel bad for not having as much money?

    Or should we show them respect and acknowledge that when they say they can't afford the current release schedule, or that they wouldn't be able to afford a faster release schedule, that they mean it?

    In short, shouldn't we realise that not everyone is as lucky and fortunate as us and concepts like affordability are relative to how much one has?

  5. #5
    I understand that not everyone has the finances to do $2 a day but in comparison to other CCGs, which would make the most sense to compare this game to, the entry point and price is affordable compared to other games.

    I agree Slapster that it is an affordable game. And I agree Scorpion that not everyone sees it as affordable. But if we who can will help supply those who cannot as easily, balance is there. I see it in our local scene and I hope others do also. It keeps players in and frankly I don't know what else to do with the rest of my extras

    I love my local competition but would love to see more variety. So I look forward to what the PDC and Regionals start to bring to the table

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    This is my main problem with the release schedule too.

    And it's made all the worse if you live in an area where you might get one organised event a month, if you're lucky.

    But, on the money point, it's all very well and good to break it down in to $2 per day, when you can comfortably afford it, and say that it's cheap.

    But, and I know it's very hard to understand this when you are not on this position yourself, for some people $2 per is NOT comfortably affordable.

    Perhaps $1, or $1.50 is. But not $2 or more.

    Should those people be excluded from the game?

    Should they be made to feel bad for not having as much money?

    Or should we show them respect and acknowledge that when they say they can't afford the current release schedule, or that they wouldn't be able to afford a faster release schedule, that they mean it?

    In short, shouldn't we realise that not everyone is as lucky and fortunate as us and concepts like affordability are relative to how much one has?
    It's a hobby. There are many options. Compared to many other games (and many other hobbies) it comes out well.

    Is it a luxury? Sure. Many things beyond the basics are luxuries.

    But these statements that are almost accusations at anyone who might say that it's affordable are a bit too far in my book. Any hobby will automatically exclude the people who can't afford it. That's not an indictment of the hobby or those who like it, but it feels like you're saying it should be.

    This one in particular compares well to its peers, something worth noting and celebrating. This is far easier to keep up on than other CCGs or Clix. Is it as inexpensive as an LCG? No, but then you also lose resale value.

    Factoring in what I've been able to sell at times, there are multiple sets where I was able to keep going at no added cost. Certain pulls in draft will pay for that draft for you (or even more).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacBV View Post
    I understand that not everyone has the finances to do $2 a day but in comparison to other CCGs, which would make the most sense to compare this game to, the entry point and price is affordable compared to other games.

    I agree Slapster that it is an affordable game. And I agree Scorpion that not everyone sees it as affordable. But if we who can will help supply those who cannot as easily, balance is there. I see it in our local scene and I hope others do also. It keeps players in and frankly I don't know what else to do with the rest of my extras

    I love my local competition but would love to see more variety. So I look forward to what the PDC and Regionals start to bring to the table
    What exactly does that mean? I don't want to start a measuring contest over who's given away more or this or that, and I also would appreciate if you could clarify before I respond to the completely wrong sentiment than I thought, etc...

    The internet is hard for things like this to be discussed without being exact

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    But these statements that are almost accusations at anyone who might say that it's affordable are a bit too far in my book. Any hobby will automatically exclude the people who can't afford it. That's not an indictment of the hobby or those who like it, but it feels like you're saying it should be.
    Then you misunderstand what I am saying.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    What exactly does that mean? I don't want to start a measuring contest over who's given away more or this or that, and I also would appreciate if you could clarify before I respond to the completely wrong sentiment than I thought, etc...

    The internet is hard for things like this to be discussed without being exact

    Not meant to be a contest comment, but to reflect your previous statement of giving away stuff that is extra to newbies or others who would like it. I applaud you and those who can share and or donate to people in their playgroup. Keep up the great community aspects!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    What exactly does that mean? I don't want to start a measuring contest over who's given away more or this or that, and I also would appreciate if you could clarify before I respond to the completely wrong sentiment than I thought, etc...

    The internet is hard for things like this to be discussed without being exact
    I suspect he is referring to people (like most of us) that buy multiple gravity feeds, and then are able/willing to share excess commons/uncommons/dice with newer people who are just getting into the game.

    I can personally thank @pishposh for giving me a bunch of the C/UC I needed to finish a couple of my sets, and the very first OP event I went to as I was just getting into the game, the TO gave me a couple extra AvX Rare cards he had to help me start my AvX collection. I've tried to follow through myself by supporting other people at my local OP events - when someone who was just starting won a Avengers Disassembled Hawkeye, I gave them the common and uncommon plus several dice, since they didn't have anything from AvX.

    I don't think it's so much about "who's given more" (because that totally misses the point), more about the mindset of people who are able to invest heavily in the game helping out people who aren't able to invest as heavily, especially when it comes to extra C/UC/dice.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacBV View Post
    Not meant to be a contest comment, but to reflect your previous statement of giving away stuff that is extra to newbies or others who would like it. I applaud you and those who can share and or donate to people in their playgroup. Keep up the great community aspects!
    Haha, honestly, I would do it anyway, as it was something I started with Heroclix because duplicates of those can start requiring rooms dedicated to them.

    Now though even with DM, the deck boxes and plastic dice containers really ARE worth more than the duplicates inside, haha. I suppose I could put together C/U sets and sell them, but I'd rather help out newer people; I know I REALLY got into HeroClix when I was given a huge box of even just C/Us, because it opened up the game by so much, and I was still new enough not to know to be disappointed I didn't get certain cards or whatever. Even the crappiest version of a character that I liked was awesome to me.

    But like, my friends and I all help each other out, from HeroClix to Dice Masters. Someone will give me X because it's extra, I'll give them Y, and before you know it, it gets to a point where one friend and I were literally giving each other $60-$120 HeroClix convention exclusives and chases that we knew the other would want more, because we knew it would be reciprocated. It's nice, because there isn't even awkwardness, it's just normal. I'd actually meant to offer him one of my extra Aquaman cards, but had forgotten, but he fortunately didn't mind asking, "So, what are you doing with your other Aquaman?" It's funny, but it's nice, because it means we've actually reached the ideal point that one could reach. If there's an awesome Batman or DC comics dude he likes, and actually it was switched in this case with him wanting to judge for the Storm, and me the Aquaman. Fortunately, we each ended up with each anyways (I did SO TERRIBLY at my store's Marvel event), but it's good to have a group of people you like and like you, and you can give away to, and without even worrying or thinking, know it will come back around - in any number of ways.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SlapsterMcFlash View Post
    Would you care to help us understand, rather than just point out a mistake made?
    Sure.

    It is statement of my core philosophy of mutual respect.

    And an acknowledgement that we each have a unique perspective, on questions such as affordability, based on our individual life circumstances.

    Nothing else should be read in to my post.

  14. #14

  15. #15

  16. #16
    I don't hate it. Wish there were more breathing room, but its also not bad enough that it annoys me either. I just wish I could get more drafts in with most sets.

  17. #17
    The breathing room aspect does annoy me, and I point again to the AoU aspect as the case study.

  18. #18
    I don't hate it, but I've barely played age o ultron before war of light is on us. Additionally I've only gotten in to dc last month so I'm pretty much on a set a month at the minute. Which is hard to sustain!!! Especially with other games that I play requiring a monthly money sink. Especially now we've moved to 8 super rares. I'm all but there on war of light. Additionally English prices are higher than us, the equivalent cheapest for a gravity feed here is $107 dollars plus. I'd kill to be able to get the prices you guys over there get, would certainly make the pain of this addiction a lot easier to take.

    Once I'm up to date it won't be so bad. But this is an issue that any newer player will be faced with if they're trying to play catch up. Ideally I'd like a set every 3 months. As that would give me a reasonable amount of time to explore and enjoy a set before the next one lands.

  19. #19
    So I have some feelings about the release schedule that has been hit this year. First, I came into this game right before D&D hit the stores. I pre-ordered to get my Minsc and Boo card. So AvX / UxM / and YGO were all already on the store shelves. I didn't waddle through the nearly 5 months of just AvX being available. Or the initial muting of UxM breaking the game with PXG. I am going to say this about the cost aspect -> I am not independently wealthy. I work for a living. The current release schedule allows me to spend my 'hobby money', although I do not think of it in those terms, and still have money left over for other hobby-ish things. If I say purchase a full art Tsarina off ebay, I am doing so knowing that it isn't going to set me back financially or interfere with anything else in my life. Playing this game isn't breaking the bank.

    Now, I started with a set that has started a progression of a set being released very 2 months. Adding cards to the constructed game while providing it's own variation of limited play, either with hybrid or draft. As a collector, I find the pace to be on par with keeping me interested in the hobby. As a PLAYER, I find the rules updates madding. The cards are great in exploring new interactions with previously released cards leads to invariably trying to figure out how something should be played. If the rules kept pace with the meta, that would make this all around great for me.

    I probably enjoy this game more than other people. I am not as fanatical about it as some individuals. I am maintaining Vassal modules, working on my own iOS Dice Masters App, and generally trying to get anyone who wants to learn playing twice a week at my FLGS; So you might take my opinion as biased.

  20. #20
    I'll take another view - the rapid (somewhat) release schedule provides an opportunity to home-brew some terrific teams. Since we are all being "fire-hosed" with 132+ new cards every few months, the current tendency is to find the "meta" cards or rank the best of the new set as they are being spoiled/released and create teams around them. But there are those players that look for the hidden gems in each past set while the general crowd has moved onto the next shiny object.

    In an elite tournament setting (e.g. a Regional/National/World), the good players know not only the common meta, but how to counter it. So the path to making the top tier is having a combo that no one considered and piloting that team to victory (see the top 16 teams from the Worlds - did anyone really see how Solomon Grundy would be that secret weapon before the World Champ brought it to light?!?).

    So I say bring it on. More variety means we'll have more surprising teams being developed - smashing together the old and the new (as an aside, this is why I'm against "retiring" sets in the near-term). It'll make this game even stronger and definitely makes the meta (or even having a meta outside of a few of the more stalwart cards) more dynamic.

    Also, all the more reason to get your local store linked into the PDC (if you haven't already) so we can record and share these developments and trends.

  21. #21
    There are some problems here that can't be ignored, however.

    First, I'm with Dave and Scorpion, etc, here. The release schedule is too fast to allow any real breathing room with sets. Look at the swarmhawk team that got a lot of positive response. That didn't really make it's proper debut until the very end of the format, right before WoL hit store shelves. In fact, war of light will probably be hit the hardest by this release schedule. So many different lantern colours and synergies will not have a chance to be properly explored before a new set is thrown in front of us. Right now, I think Dicemasters is the gaming equivalent of junk food. You can have more and more until you're blue in the face, but it isn't exactly healthy.

    Second, that math is assuming a couple of things. As @Scorpion0x17 pointed out, you are under the assumption that everyone is like yourself. Which I can understand, I don't expect people's opinions to be unbiased, that goes against the point of an opinion. It is however important to remember that people are not all like yourself, and you have to take their perspectives into account.

    Next, you are assuming that you will be able to get something worthwhile out of their cases and if not, sell it for a solid chunk of money to get the cards you do want. However, with 8 super rares per set, it is very unlikely that this will continue to be the case. As much as I don't like 4 chase rares per set, their value has imploded quite quickly, so they haven't been too hard to get. The super rares are doing the same thing, with a few exceptions. The good supers will hold value, and the ok-to-meh cards will plummet quickly. My point is, by taking this stance, you put a lot of trust into Wizkids to not become the next Konami or WOTC, and fill their sets to the brim with worthless high rarity cards, except for the one short printed card that hits $100's of dollars or more on the secondary market.

    There is also the issue of rulings. If a set comes out once every two months, and we can't play with half of our cards with any sort of confidence because it takes multiple weeks to get official rulings, how can we play the game at all? I think this is one of the things that @Randy brought up quite well when he explained why he was getting out of Dicemasters for the time being, but many people glossed over for the sake of gossiping.

    Finally, we have the issue of quality control. Wizkids does not have very many employees, and they've shown us many times that 2 months is not enough time to properly spell-check or proofread. To get back to my point about Dicemasters in it's current state being like junk food, would you rather have a high-class, well put together meal or a bunch of no-name brand snacks? If I'm spending my hard earned money on something, I do expect that I'm buying something of quality. Especially if this game wants to be a collectible card game. The cards need to be worth the time, effort and money collecting. That goes without mentioning the impacts of poor proofreading on the meta (See the Jocasta fiasco).

    So personally, no, I'm not ok with the current release schedule. There are some things that could be done though. We could go back to 4 super rares a set (with 3 per case). That would make buying in to the game more worthwhile for newer players, and it would allow people to spend less time trying to get the things that they need and more time playing the game. If this became the case again, I would have little problem with the 1 set every 2 months release schedule. Or, we could go to a quarterly release schedule as @Dave suggested, giving us more time to experiment with cards, obtain the cards we need and draft/play/run larger events. That would also give Wizkids more time to proofread, spell-check and work on making the cards mechanics clearer. I'm not against having a new set every two months in principle, but I am against having a new set every two months under these current conditions. Whether you like the current release schedule or not, you cannot ignore the flaws that it has.

  22. #22
    I agree the meta needs more time to breathe. Especially in places that only get 1-2 real constructed events a month. Currently our store will have one constructed tournament planned between WoL and Spider-man this is crazy fast.

    I compare this to the LCG's by FFG where you get maybe 7 releases a year but those 7 releases amount to 1-2 sets of dice masters.

    I do think things are being pumped out a bit too fast for the health of the game. Realistically 3 sets a year and then a "standalone" like TMNT would be ideal. Isn't magic toning down how many sets it pumps out.

    The realistic thing is WizKids is going to pump out product as long as we keep buying it (myself included). That's how they make profit.

    To make the same profit off of 2-3 sets a year they would have to up the cost of the product, (unless we really think more playtesting/proofreading/meta breathing would lead to a sets worth of increased sales?).

    Would people pay $1.25 a pack if it meant the product was tested a bit more and QA checked to give us a more complete product? I know a few people who would and a few who wouldn't so they are in a stick situation.

    Ultimatly I really enjoy the game, so if pumping out product fast keeps the game afloat and going at Wizkids then I'm all for it, but I do wish we had more time between sets to really let things flesh out.

  23. #23
    Am I happy with the currently speed of releases - Not really, because of the for mentioned points, Allowing a set to be explored and breath, cost, and the possible view that the speed of releases seem to be affecting Q&A in both proofing and play testing of interactions outside of the set.

    Would I be happy to see an increase of $0.25 to each pack - Unlike the people from the states, I`m in Australia, where currently I pay $1.50 a pack. So a $0.25 increase would realistic move the price up to $2 a pack (and for those who are interested my store is paying just under $100 for a GF)

    Do I think the game would fold if Wizkids slowed down - Not at all, in fact I think it would pick up pace more, by slowing down the releases, it would increase the meta, and give people to feel out the combos that arent plain to see at release, and also give new people a chance to breath, before being asked for a bunch more money to try and keep up with the latest releases

    Do I think the game as a whole would improve with a slower release date - Well that depends, if the extra time was going into some solid play testing, and gave the rules team a chance to catch up and breath (and maybe start getting ahead of the game) YES the game would improve in leaps and bounds, nut slowing the release time down by itself will do nothing for the game


    TL:DR - I think Wizkids needs to slow down and think about improving their pre release testing, to include (if it doesnt already) unlimited combos and interactions - and if slowing down the release rate allows them to do it ... then Woooooh Nelly

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    There are some problems here that can't be ignored, however.

    First, I'm with Dave and Scorpion, etc, here. The release schedule is too fast to allow any real breathing room with sets. Look at the swarmhawk team that got a lot of positive response. That didn't really make it's proper debut until the very end of the format, right before WoL hit store shelves. In fact, war of light will probably be hit the hardest by this release schedule. So many different lantern colours and synergies will not have a chance to be properly explored before a new set is thrown in front of us. Right now, I think Dicemasters is the gaming equivalent of junk food. You can have more and more until you're blue in the face, but it isn't exactly healthy.

    Second, that math is assuming a couple of things. As @Scorpion0x17 pointed out, you are under the assumption that everyone is like yourself. Which I can understand, I don't expect people's opinions to be unbiased, that goes against the point of an opinion. It is however important to remember that people are not all like yourself, and you have to take their perspectives into account.

    Next, you are assuming that you will be able to get something worthwhile out of their cases and if not, sell it for a solid chunk of money to get the cards you do want. However, with 8 super rares per set, it is very unlikely that this will continue to be the case. As much as I don't like 4 chase rares per set, their value has imploded quite quickly, so they haven't been too hard to get. The super rares are doing the same thing, with a few exceptions. The good supers will hold value, and the ok-to-meh cards will plummet quickly. My point is, by taking this stance, you put a lot of trust into Wizkids to not become the next Konami or WOTC, and fill their sets to the brim with worthless high rarity cards, except for the one short printed card that hits $100's of dollars or more on the secondary market.

    There is also the issue of rulings. If a set comes out once every two months, and we can't play with half of our cards with any sort of confidence because it takes multiple weeks to get official rulings, how can we play the game at all? I think this is one of the things that @Randy brought up quite well when he explained why he was getting out of Dicemasters for the time being, but many people glossed over for the sake of gossiping.

    Finally, we have the issue of quality control. Wizkids does not have very many employees, and they've shown us many times that 2 months is not enough time to properly spell-check or proofread. To get back to my point about Dicemasters in it's current state being like junk food, would you rather have a high-class, well put together meal or a bunch of no-name brand snacks? If I'm spending my hard earned money on something, I do expect that I'm buying something of quality. Especially if this game wants to be a collectible card game. The cards need to be worth the time, effort and money collecting. That goes without mentioning the impacts of poor proofreading on the meta (See the Jocasta fiasco).

    So personally, no, I'm not ok with the current release schedule. There are some things that could be done though. We could go back to 4 super rares a set (with 3 per case). That would make buying in to the game more worthwhile for newer players, and it would allow people to spend less time trying to get the things that they need and more time playing the game. If this became the case again, I would have little problem with the 1 set every 2 months release schedule. Or, we could go to a quarterly release schedule as @Dave suggested, giving us more time to experiment with cards, obtain the cards we need and draft/play/run larger events. That would also give Wizkids more time to proofread, spell-check and work on making the cards mechanics clearer. I'm not against having a new set every two months in principle, but I am against having a new set every two months under these current conditions. Whether you like the current release schedule or not, you cannot ignore the flaws that it has.
    Excellent post.

  25. #25
    A respectful rebuttal to some of the points from Osprey - not trying to be argumentative, just debating the thoughts on this thread:

    "So many different lantern colours and synergies will not have a chance to be properly explored before a new set is thrown in front of us."

    This reads as if you assume players do not examine previously released cards and find the killer combos. To me, these surprises make my preparation for the sanctioned tournament scene even more enjoyable. I do understand with the closeness of sets being released that there is a lot of info to digest and not all players like being in this position.

    "My point is, by taking this stance, you put a lot of trust into Wizkids to not become the next Konami or WOTC, and fill their sets to the brim with worthless high rarity cards, except for the one short printed card that hits $100's of dollars or more on the secondary market."

    Why would Wizkids care what a card fetches on the secondary market? The initial prices on the secondary market for DM cards is greatly based on desire and impatience. Of note, a BL atl-art card was being sold (and bought) for $190+ when WoL hit the streets. You currently can get 3 of the 4 BL in stock on CoolStuffInc for $49.99. On "short printed cards": given what I've seen first-hand of a SR print sheet, the only cards that are of a quantity less than the other SRs are the alt-art/chase cards.

    "If I'm spending my hard earned money on something, I do expect that I'm buying something of quality."

    I call this the Kardashian syndrome: they'll keep being relevant as long as people are still paying attention to them (and paying for their "stuff')... So, if you do not like the quality of the game components or the support for the game from the publisher, stop buying the game.


    Rhetorically, taking a step back, ask yourself these questions:

    Why would a publisher release expansions to a popular product on an accelerated schedule?

    Who (or what) are the enablers for such behavior?


    "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

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