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Thread: The Competitive/creativity- Problem

  1. #1

    The Competitive/creativity- Problem

    Hey there, this is a small Pre-Thread for a bigger one.

    My question is,
    i want to open a league, and when i read the article about a "sharing a common goal" i was wondering how you can create a "low-key" league?
    I want to motivate the people to play many different things and not force them to play always competitive and i dont wanna see them feel weak because some players has always the super top tier cards on there team and just playing that.
    So one way would be i think giving Points for different Achievements like every time a different Team with different Cards or making only a team from one set or affiliation.

    So my goal is Creativity > Competitive
    Do you have ideas for this?

  2. #2
    My league: we play two events every Saturday. League lasts three months and players top two records each month are used for their league standings.

    We do one unlimited event and one draft per month. That leaves six to eight other events. For those we do a mix of other formats such as:
    D&d only--purple worm banned
    Mixed starter set constructed
    Single energy only--bolts rares super rares hulk and worm banned
    Etc.

    I love unlimited constructed. But I love competing with friends I a creative environment where they are happy and have a chance so this is a win win in my opinion.

  3. #3
    Thanks for your info, thats a lot of work but think i can make it!

  4. #4
    I'd say just let people play what they want. If you're actually worried about this I assume your group has some competition and some casual players. I wouldn't try and restrict either, that just makes people not show up. Instead, encourage creative teams with extra prizes at the end. Like having people vote for the most unique team or combo, or have sportsmanship prizes. Theme weeks are good too but only if everyone agrees.

    Most importantly, it's just a league, emphasize the casual aspect and I'm sure people will understand, just don't outright alienate people if they want to play more competitive teams. Maybe have separate tournaments that aren't part of the league. Or draft, that's a good way to get more people on the same level, and it's good fun.

    You don't need to do a ton of work if it's not a super competitive event. Just let people have fun!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypnofist View Post
    I wouldn't try and restrict either, that just makes people not show up. Instead, encourage creative teams with extra prizes at the end. Like having people vote for the most unique team or combo, or have sportsmanship prizes.
    I'm going to respectfully disagree with the first point but agree with the second.

    I am a VERY competitive player. But I find endless enjoymentand--for some, most importantly--competitive advantage to restricted formats. I still min-max and try to win those events. The card pool is more than large enough now to allow for all sorts of interesting and previously untapped strategies to be utilized in those events. For competitive players, those events:
    (1) Hone your team building skills by forcing you to think outside of the box.
    (2) Hone your piloting skills by forcing you to to play with and against strategies you wouldn't have previously encountered.
    (3) Maintains a healthy and active local scene for you to keep playing with to keep the casual players happy. Even in my area, where we have a lot of players, I don't think the game is big enough yet to hold casual and competitive events and forcing players to choose. Make a big tent. Offer something for everyone.
    Top competitive players have all three (team building, piloting, local scene) of the above. Therefore, in my opinion at least, competitive players should not only endure, but welcome and ask for restricted formats.

    I agree with your second point though. Allowing for wonky achievements is another way to approach it. (Though it can be a lot of work to record!) Listen to a recent Dice Anon podcast (the summer league) to hear about the creative system that @archivist set up. It's a great option. Just be careful to make sure it's something your player base is interested in. It worked for that store because that was not the only event they held--they held two to three events weekly and that was only one. If creative achievement based play is the only option though, I could see some players tiring of trying to play a normal game when their opponent is just trying to roll twenty dice in a single turn

  6. #6
    Deleted again. I am bad with math nevermind.^^

    Also voting for Teams sounds good, but i think adding extra points for that is maybe better and easier.

  7. #7
    I'm not really interested in formats with banned cards, if those bans aren't officially handed down from WK themselves. I don't mind playing set restricted tournaments. I refuse to play tournaments with arbitrary rules like "one energy type only". On the other hand there were players that left the local scene when it was dominated by just a few players. I dunno. I don't think you can please everyone, so just try to please those interested in what you're doing.

    Edit: I also think the freer the build possibilities the more creativity matters. "The Meta" is not some nebulous force, it is created by players discerning what is good. It is the creative players that figure out what good team builds are. It is the non-creative players that are incapable of thinking of critical interactions that define the meta.
    Last edited by Scum; 09-27-2015 at 05:25 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    I refuse to play tournaments with arbitrary rules like "one energy type only".
    I'm gonna take the bait because this is important and I am confident that, because Dice Masters events generally attract a crowd that, unlike other collectible games, has a very low ratio of spikes, this is how you don't kill your local scene.

    Everyone is more than free to not participate in any event he or she is not interested in obviously. But to disparage anything other than unlimited constructed as "arbitrary" is unhelpful. Each event I run has carefully selected restrictions to ensure balance and many viable options. Maybe that was poor word selection on your part, but I want to doubly emphasize this point so people considering these options are not turned off.

  9. #9
    I understand the thing with restriction. Indy Mon i wished you could come to me and discuss this with the people here... . They are sometimes really stubborn or wont understand that with restriction comes also an easier gameplay for new players that dont have so much cards.

    Sure in a league where someone doesnt want to play a certain limited event,loses crucial points maybe for end outcome.

    Edit: I think the only thing i should be careful is, if i run a league , that everybody can play.

    Example:
    Heroes vs Villains
    Should include Good vs Evil and Neutrals as one team too

  10. #10
    I think variety is key.

    And, by variety, I mean you need to have both unrestricted and restricted formats, in my opinion.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I think variety is key.

    And, by variety, I mean you need to have both unrestricted and restricted formats, in my opinion.
    On how could i do that?

    I mean to best option for a League is Unlimited

    For Events/Tournaments different Formats working well too.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Mon
    I'm gonna take the bait because this is important and I am confident that, because Dice Masters events generally attract a crowd that, unlike other collectible games, has a very low ratio of spikes, this is how you don't kill your local scene.

    Everyone is more than free to not participate in any event he or she is not interested in obviously. But to disparage anything other than unlimited constructed as "arbitrary" is unhelpful. Each event I run has carefully selected restrictions to ensure balance and many viable options. Maybe that was poor word selection on your part, but I want to doubly emphasize this point so people considering these options are not turned off.
    I agree with the first point, not so much with the second. Everyone is free to play what they want how they want, and you're also free to just not play. This is one of those issues I'm kind of torn on though. I think it's better for the stores to allow flexibility to get a wider audience. I also think that maybe it's better for the casual to have a place to congregate and play. However, putting restrictions that didn't come from WK into a tournament is worse for the spikes. By banning and restricting things that aren't banned or restricted elsewhere you're trying to make one subset of people play a game that is fundamentally different than they game they're interested in. I'm not seeing why the casuals should be treated as special snowflakes instead of the spikes. Either way one group has to get treated with favoritism and it's up to the TO to discriminate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    Sure in a league where someone doesnt want to play a certain limited event,loses crucial points maybe for end outcome.
    I think leagues should stick to one format just to not cause situations where someone either has to play a format they're not interested in to keep a relevant amount of points or something like that.

  13. #13
    I actually may have something fun and interesting coming down the pipes at the moment, and it may or may not become a part of my next blog post. As the TO, all I can say is look forward to some insanity!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    all I can say is look forward to some insanity!
    hahahaaha best post this day !!! Describes my everyday situation!


    I came to a conclusion.

    My League will be.

    Almost Unlimited, some formats that doesnt restrict people too much will be included (i will beforehand ask people about opinions), like Litte Cup, Limited Hybrid... .

    Point System from Magic and the Women football(soccer) league in france!
    W-D-L
    4-2-1

    Extra points for achievements.

    Prices will be Kits and special things with the rest money.

    And beside that Drafts and different Format Events with Booster prices every second week.

    I will post a blog entry when its final and ready to leave the harbor.

  15. #15
    Listen to the DiceAnon podcast #16:

    http://www.diceanon.com/podcast/podc...summer-league/

    They have a pretty cool thing going, with achievements and such.

    My personal thought is that arbitrary card bans aren't really all that fun, but occasional theme events can be. I like "Little Cup", because it allows for a lot of creativity while still making a fairly level playing field. I really enjoyed an event we ran a couple weeks ago, where the TO used the Transition Zone app to create completely random teams for everyone (he has every card available and tons of dice, so he could supplement people that needed them).

  16. #16
    Some points about how we set up a league:

    (1) What we've done in SoCal (refer to the previously cited Dice Anon podcast) is one way to organize and run a league - not the only way. Stay tuned, the achievements we used will be posted there soon.

    (2) The two league events we constructed had input from our player base.

    (3) We accommodated two styles of play (league/casual and tournament/OP constructed) by having one day dedicated to league play and another day dedicated to tournament/OP/draft play. Almost every player participated in both events.

    (4) While not absolutely necessary, but it makes the league run MUCH better, your local store needs to be an active participant with product/prize/publicity support - not just a place that provides table space.

    (5) Having a prize support package that is more than a few OP cards is a big plus. For our summer league, the winner received two gravity feeds (note: Age of Ultron had just been released); the runner up received one GF and the player, who did not already receive a prize, that had the most wins received one GF - all GFs were the winner's choice. Our store had GFs of all the sets in stock (AvX to AoU).

    (6) Since our second league event was achievement based, we decided to put a restriction on some of the common meta cards at that time (only 8 of them: Tsarina, Gobby, Constantine, Hulk GG, Wind Rider, Johnny Storm, Jinzo, and Wolverine FWX) because a player could "game" the system and rack-up a lot of achievement points by using these cards against other participants who were playing more casual teams . A player could still used them if they wanted, but they would not be able to obtain any achievement points - only points for winning a match. BTW - this was well received in our group because the rationale for this format was clearly explained (and it provided a more level playing field) and it did not "ban" the card, only limited one's point potential if it was used.

    (7) The achievements for each league event were randomly selected from a pre-determined list (published before the league started) and sent to the players one week in advance so they could prepare their teams.

    (8) You must have a TO willing to do the yeoman work of organizing the event, administering the league format and recording/publishing the results.

    (9) The main objective of our league play is to have fun through casual, but innovative, play. This format is still competitive, but not with the some of the stress that comes from a standard tournament format.

    Again, canvass your players and get their input. After all, it is their league...

  17. #17
    Thank you @archivist ! Still waiting on the list ;-)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    On how could i do that?

    I mean to best option for a League is Unlimited

    For Events/Tournaments different Formats working well too.
    There is no reason why a league has to have the same format for all games from start to finish.

    Split the league up into weeks, and one week do full constructed, the next week Little Cup, then maybe a draft week, or a theme week, or whatever really.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    There is no reason why a league has to have the same format for all games from start to finish.

    Split the league up into weeks, and one week do full constructed, the next week Little Cup, then maybe a draft week, or a theme week, or whatever really.
    Yes there is. Let's say I'm not interested in playing little cup, yet to get points to maintain my lead in the league I have to play a format I don't like that would potentially turn me off from the league entirely.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Yes there is. Let's say I'm not interested in playing little cup, yet to get points to maintain my lead in the league I have to play a format I don't like that would potentially turn me off from the league entirely.
    Two points:

    1. With a single format league you exclude people who don't like that format from the entire league.
    2. Leagues can be setup such that it does not matter if you miss rounds/weeks for whatever reason.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    There is no reason why a league has to have the same format for all games from start to finish.

    Split the league up into weeks, and one week do full constructed, the next week Little Cup, then maybe a draft week, or a theme week, or whatever really.
    Yes there is. Let's say I'm not interested in playing little cup, yet to get points to maintain my lead in the league I have to play a format I don't like that would potentially turn me off from the league entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Two points:

    1. With a single format league you exclude people who don't like that format from the entire league.
    2. Leagues can be setup such that it does not matter if you miss rounds/weeks for whatever reason.
    and also @archivist .

    Thanks i can unterstand the arguments.


    That is the thing, i know all the podcasts, i really liked that one at that time and tried to build up my local group to a community, just to get beat down by disinterest of the people who owns this game.

    Well now i want to try a normal League with just 1 Game per Week
    and beside that an Event.

    If i would run a Event League that would be really cool. I could run a League for Casual, but i am confused how bring in the players. Sorry about the whining sometimes, but i will never get more than 4 players for an Event every just like that, if 4 and not 2 included myself. Thats why i search for a smaller start.

    Our store owner is not really focusing on DM, that he doesnt really care if we get OP Kits or not.


    I really like to see the Achievement list too, because i think it is a way to give people a reason for a League match to do something different.

    Also i think if i want to run a League with different Formats, i have somehow to make possible to take away the pressure and grief about losing points and maybe feeling cheated. I mean Scum has a point there. He shows the example of some players here and if i had enough players, i would just give such players an Event they want and normal Tournaments. But every time i tried to talk with them the outcome is the same as @Scum states it or even more disinterest.


    Man you guys shaping or at least let me turn around every time i walk in her^^. Thanks in a good way!^^

  22. #22
    We don't necessarily have a league but we have theme'd nights.

    At our store the first Thursday of the month is always a draft.

    The third thursday is a full constructed tournament.

    Then the off weeks are casual "league play" (You earn points for wins and can claim OP prizes for certain point levels).

    As a community we come up with a theme to build around each week.

    Last week was to bring 8 cards all with a different cost. Some others have been (bring 4 characters 4 action cards, bring 4 mono energy teams, roll a side kick to choose which team you play, etc).

    People seem to enjoy them and we aren't strict on it. If someone doesn't have the cards to complete the theme challenge there's no penalty. It also helps us avoid 2-3 people playing Gobby Widow every week.

  23. #23

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I actually may have something fun and interesting coming down the pipes at the moment, and it may or may not become a part of my next blog post. As the TO, all I can say is look forward to some insanity!
    Insanity achieved, everyone had a ton of fun and I wrote a quick bit about what kind of craziness went down on my blog over here.

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