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Thread: WK Rules Updated - SLCC Lantern Ruling backed

  1. #1

    WK Rules Updated - SLCC Lantern Ruling backed

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...hp?f=10&t=8509

    "Hi Dice Masters Fans!

    We've gotten a number of questions about the below and wanted to clarify how some interactions work and the reasons why.

    How does redirecting costs work?
    You cannot redirect costs. Under Fundamental Rules in the rulebook, it states:
    “You cannot avoid paying costs. For example, if the cost of something is spinning a die down one level, and all you have are level 1 characters that can’t be spun down you can’t pay that cost.”
    For example, you couldn’t use Blue Eyes White Dragon: Monstrous Dragon’s Global Ability in conjunction with Wonder Girl: Cassie Sandsmark. KOing your own character for Blue Eyes White Dragon is a cost to you, you cannot avoid paying it. To further clarify this, some future rulebooks will include:
    When doing something in isolation would typically be detrimental to the player using it, it is a cost.

    How do Global Abilities that require something else to happen work?
    Cards like War Machine: Combat Comrade and Mera: Queen of Atlantis can only have their Global Abilities used once for each time the effect would apply. So a single Shield character die could attack for 6 damage, go unblocked, and have both Mera and War Machine’s Global Abilities used on it (each once). If two 6A Shield character dice attacked (unblocked) each Global Ability could be used twice. These effects are paid for at the appropriate time, not before.
    The rulebook says the following, which applies here:
    “Players are allowed to use Global Abilities that react to events at the appropriate time (for example, a Global Ability that allows you to redirect damage when one of your characters takes damage).”

    How does ignoring text/abilities work when action dice add abilities to characters and their dice?
    Treat additional abilities from action dice as abilities on those characters. Those abilities can be ignored, prevented, and modified as if they were character abilities. If an effect would give a character die +2A and Overcrush, but that character die’s abilities are being ignored, it couldn’t use Overcrush but would still get +2A. The attack bonus isn’t an ability.
    Future rulebooks will define Ability Damage as follows:
    “Ability Damage: Damage from a character that isn’t combat damage.”
    For example, Magneto: Magnetic Monster ignores Lantern Ring’s effect on character dice with Purchase Cost 3 or lower. For another example, Human Paladin’s Global Ability could reduce the damage from character dice benefitting from Lantern Ring.
    Magneto: Magnetic Monster
    “Zombie - when fielded, KO all non-[Zombie] Magnetos.
    While active, opposing characters with Purchase Cost 3 or lower lose their abilities. Professor X can't be fielded.”
    Lantern Ring: Limited Only By Imagination
    “Continuous: While active, when your characters attack, they deal 1 damage to target player for each energy symbol in your Reserve Pool that matches their type.”
    Human Paladin Global:
    "Global: Pay [1 Shield] . Reduce the damage you take from a character's ability to 1."

    -The Dice Masters Rules Team
    In order to keep this thread easy to process, comments won't be approved by further clarification may be provided in a new post."

  2. #2
    So, any action die that directly affects a character is now considered a character ability. Magneto and Loki just got rediculous.

  3. #3
    Im surprised that what I, and others, thought the Lantern Ring ruling could mean is actually true. This is going to change the way we think about and treat several things.
    Ability wipes are going to be huge now. Things like Loki: Loki Laufeyson are all of a sudden action dice counters! I dont think anyone ever saw that coming. (well, before the Lantern Ring ruling anyways)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    So, any action die that directly affects a character is now considered a character ability. Magneto and Loki just got rediculous.
    It's subtle but the not eliminating the +2 Attack thing seems odd to me.

    I mean an ability is granting the dice +2 attack right? How is this any different than a card printed that has the ability. This character gets +2 attack. It could be on a card that maybe costs more. Are all stat modifiers not abilities then? Like attack granted from Ambush, can that be blanked or not?

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by KennedyHawk View Post
    It's subtle but the not eliminating the +2 Attack thing seems odd to me.

    I mean an ability is granting the dice +2 attack right? How is this any different than a card printed that has the ability. This character gets +2 attack. It could be on a card that maybe costs more. Are all stat modifiers not abilities then? Like attack granted from Ambush, can that be blanked or not?
    So the +2A is simply a modifier to the die vs. an ability which may be wiped.

    Based on the new rule, Ambush's bonus would not be affected or blanked by Loki/Magneto - MM.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Heres some more questions about the action dice effects that needs to be addressed now that we are treating them differently- when do the characters get the abilities? If an action dice affects all of your characters, does it only affect those active when the ability was played? Or is it a standing effect that goes onto anything for that turn? Would actions effect the card if its not attached to a single die?
    we will probably need some clarification similar to what we needed for Constantine Hellblazers ability.

  9. #9
    So Cerebro Cybernetic Intelligence imparts a KO effect as a character ability on the character it is on?

    So the KO effect can't be redirected by Storm?

    Oh, except it can.

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=4019&p=11415

    Because it's an action die ability.

    And it DOESN'T impart a KO effect as a character ability on the character it's on.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    So Cerebro Cybernetic Intelligence imparts a KO effect as a character ability on the character it is on?

    So the KO effect can't be redirected by Storm?

    Oh, except it can.

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...t=4019&p=11415

    Because it's an action die ability.

    And it DOESN'T impart a KO effect as a character ability on the character it's on.
    Yeah, this new rule contradicts the one you referenced?

    Some other things that are popping into my head-
    Im assuming that there are two types of actions now- 1 that gives abilities to characters, and 1 that does things to characters or players. So things that would KO a character is not giving the character the ability that it must KO itself. I would also assume that giving the character an ability is the action die's "ability". This would mean that each character using the abilities given to them by an action, would not set off any triggers such as Jinzo. Other wise, using Invulnerability would not result in 2 life cost, but 2 times the number of characters that are knocked out and returned to the field, for example.

  11. #11
    I'm ok with new rules contradicting an individual card ruling from 1 year ago.

    I'd actually prefer to see more of it.

  12. #12
    I think Cerebro is different from Lantern Ring. The text for Lantern Ring specifically says,

    "...when your characters attack, they deal 1 damage...".
    This is implies that the character die does the damage, not the action die, and is consistent with the recent ruling.

    Cerebro is different in that it says,
    Place Cerebro on an X-Men die's card. It remains there until you or a card effect removes it (it is still in the field). When you field a die from that card, knock out one opposing die.
    The character is not doing the knock out, it is Cerebro. Cerebro triggers when the character is fielded. It does not say, when the character is fielded, that character KO's an opposing die.

    With regards to Jinzo, I think that Jinzo would only trigger when you play the die. Jinzo Trap Destroyer:

    While this monster is active, your opponent must pay 2 life to use an action die or global ability.
    The way I read it is that the opponent must pay 2 life to use:

    1) an action die
    or
    2) global ability

    One could read it that it actually says:
    1) action die ability
    or
    2) global ability

    However, I think this would be incorrect. This would mean a player could play an action die, but not use the ability (i.e. using the Invulnerability action, but not attacking). Also, if this were true, then multiple uses of Cerebro's power would trigger Dr. Strange - Master of the Mystical Arts ability:

    While Doctor Strange is active, each time you use an action he deals 2 damage to a character or opponent (no matter how many dice are fielded).
    The rules forum already produced a ruling regarding this type of interaction regarding the interaction between Dr. Strange - Master of the Mystic Arts and Cerebro. This ruling can be applied to the interaction between Jinzo's ability and action die abilities and I do not believe that the new ruling changes this.

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...strange#p11546

    In short, the use of Cerebro's power does not activate Dr. Strange, so it would not require paying 2 life from Jinzo. You would only pay 2 life when you play Cerebro (moving it from Reserve Pool to Field) and place it on an X-Men card.

  13. #13
    Doesn't contradict. Cerebro says you KO target die. It doesn't say the character the cerebro die is on does the KOing. That is the difference here. lantern Ring says the character does the damage, not "when x happens, deal y damage." No contradiction.

  14. #14
    "When fielded, you may pay [2 Masks] to knock out one character."

    Character ability or not character ability?

  15. #15

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    "When fielded, you may pay [2 Masks] to knock out one character."

    Character ability or not character ability?
    Character ability. It is an effect on its own card. The concern here is when one card interacts with another card.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Mon View Post
    Character ability. It is an effect on its own card. The concern here is when one card interacts with another card.
    Would you please elaborate on the last statement?

  18. #18
    There are three types of abilities in the game. Character global and action. Psylockes ability is on her card and is triggered by no other cards doing anything. This is an easy case. It is Psylocke's character ability.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight4612 View Post
    I think Cerebro is different from Lantern Ring. The text for Lantern Ring specifically says,



    This is implies that the character die does the damage, not the action die, and is consistent with the recent ruling.

    Cerebro is different in that it says,


    The character is not doing the knock out, it is Cerebro. Cerebro triggers when the character is fielded. It does not say, when the character is fielded, that character KO's an opposing die.

    With regards to Jinzo, I think that Jinzo would only trigger when you play the die. Jinzo Trap Destroyer:



    The way I read it is that the opponent must pay 2 life to use:

    1) an action die
    or
    2) global ability

    One could read it that it actually says:
    1) action die ability
    or
    2) global ability

    However, I think this would be incorrect. This would mean a player could play an action die, but not use the ability (i.e. using the Invulnerability action, but not attacking). Also, if this were true, then multiple uses of Cerebro's power would trigger Dr. Strange - Master of the Mystical Arts ability:



    The rules forum already produced a ruling regarding this type of interaction regarding the interaction between Dr. Strange - Master of the Mystic Arts and Cerebro. This ruling can be applied to the interaction between Jinzo's ability and action die abilities and I do not believe that the new ruling changes this.

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...strange#p11546

    In short, the use of Cerebro's power does not activate Dr. Strange, so it would not require paying 2 life from Jinzo. You would only pay 2 life when you play Cerebro (moving it from Reserve Pool to Field) and place it on an X-Men card.
    Jinzo's ability wasnt the best example to use from memory, but those such as Blue Dragon- "While active, whenever you use an action die's ability, deal 1 damage to all characters", I dont believe should be triggered for each character using the ability given to them by the action die. For this reason, I would think of those actions "ability" to be giving the ability written on the card to the characters. The ruling says to treat the abilities as the characters ability, so whats written on the card could not be the actions ability and the characters ability(besides special cases).
    So with Invulnerability, Blue Dragons ability would go off once, whether or not the ability written on the card is used or not, since those abilities would have been the characters ability.

  20. #20
    There are three sources of effects in the game characters, players, and actions.

    Lantern Ring creates an effect that characters are the source of.

    Kwannon creates an effect that the player is the source of.

    Cerebro creates an effect that either you or a character is the source of.

    So if Lantern Ring's effect is not an action ability.

    Then Kwannon's is not a character ability.

    And Cerebro's is not an action ability.

    But in the case of Cerebro we know that the effect is an action ability because Weather Witch can redirect it.

    That is the contradiction here.

  21. #21
    I think we have to figure out what the ruling applies to before we start worrying about everything else!

    Im not sure if the ruling is saying that all actions give the characters the abilities, and is only talking in respect to those that do. The lantern ring gives the characters the abilities, a card would give a character the overcrush ability.
    Does something like Invulnerability give the character that ability? "Your attacking characters that are knocked out (this turn) return to the field."
    Im not sure if this ruling is saying that it does. So I feel like we need clarification on if all actions give the dice abilities, and if not all do, how exactly do we know for sure if an action does or not?

    Cerebro may not be a contradiction if it would be an action dice that does not give the character the ability. If all actions give the characters the ability, I would say that it may be.

    "The assumption for all dice/cards/characters that describe dealing damage are dealing the damage themselves (it doesn't come from the player or some other unknown source)."
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...it=cable#p6343

    Going off of the above ruling, we could assume that the KO must come from Cerebro or the character its on. The ruling specifically mentions damage, however, but it is coming from the characters ability.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jasongardner View Post
    So I feel like we need clarification on if all actions give the dice abilities, and if not all do, how exactly do we know for sure if an action does or not?
    Exactly.

    I am pointing out this apparent contradiction because it shows that we need further clarification on how this new mechanism in the game works before we can draw any kind of conclusions from it.

  23. #23
    I am impressed with how much stronger Loki and Z-Mags have gotten. But this really has opened up a bunch of new questions. Also does anyone feel that this is just a post to go here this should pacify you since we pretty much ignore rules questions?

  24. #24
    I don't know if this helps anyone else, but as a programmer, this ruling makes perfect sense to me. If I am having to write a logic engine in code, defining the Lantern Ring as effectively "adding a character ability to another card(s)" is a clean implementation. This does not, however, mean that all Action dice do this, only those that grant additional abilities to other characters. Some action dice only grant +1A/D or something - that, too, is an easy programmatic implementation, but it is not granting abilities, it is modifying stats. KO'ing would be another action that an action dice can generate, but it is not granting an ability to anyone, it is simply knocking out a character.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Yort View Post
    I don't know if this helps anyone else, but as a programmer, this ruling makes perfect sense to me. If I am having to write a logic engine in code, defining the Lantern Ring as effectively "adding a character ability to another card(s)" is a clean implementation. This does not, however, mean that all Action dice do this, only those that grant additional abilities to other characters. Some action dice only grant +1A/D or something - that, too, is an easy programmatic implementation, but it is not granting abilities, it is modifying stats. KO'ing would be another action that an action dice can generate, but it is not granting an ability to anyone, it is simply knocking out a character.
    Going through the list of Effects action dice can create, the most common abilities I found were "Can't Attack" or "Must Block" or some combination of those 4 words. Other than that I excluded effects that spin up or down, fielded for free, gave +A or +D and effects that moved dice from one area to another, without a specific trigger other than using the die. Direct damage effects generated by action dice also didn't seem to be character abilities. In he end, I compiled a list, you should see it in this subforum, or you could click THIS

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