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Thread: Talking with People about Basic Rules and maybe deeper to WKRF

  1. #1

    Talking with People about Basic Rules and maybe deeper to WKRF

    Hey guys, maybe thats not the nices thread title.

    But i want to hear, what is the best and maybe fastest way to bring a player back to the rules and or (if they have a question for more advanced knowledge) introducing them to the arena the we call WKRF (WizkidsRuleforum)?

    NOTE: I am talking about people that played the game often enough to call them normal players. If they would be beginners i am even more in a teachable or training mode.

    Normally i go in a game, thinking about my team, want to have fun, maybe even Success- orientated and then the question occurs about a basic thing: "Are you sure it is ment to play this way?..."
    Now i am not getting annoyed by that, in fact i can even play and teach someone else the game or some rules(i just getting slower in my play style).

    So my first step is explaining it. Then i take my rulebook with my marked Lines and search it.
    If i find it, i show it and crises avoided. But what if not? What if it is only a small sentence and they dont see the link between this one and this one.

    Oh boy now i am getting feeling: (The games delayed, stopped, and i see his/her eyes and a little bit ? in their faces.)

    I want, and will never say "I am the Judge here around" like a sheriff, except if i am for an Event.

    Now here is the part where i could show them the WKRF (what takes time) or try to give them examples with other cards. If this doesnt help. Well WKRF with detailed examination(game is canceled you could say = no fun anymore).

    And so here comes the grave for some people. When they see the rules and the ongoing more and more erratas and ask me "WHY?" i explain them a normal reason and hope they dont hate it(but some do @_@).

    I can understand people, that the rules are not the best shot. And it is much to read. But is it wrong for me to think they should read the rulebook before they play serious or with a full pledged meta team, or at least ask for help if they have question from the rules?


    Because i am getting tired of finding always a new between-link for the person and me to understand each other and getting on one point for the rules. Heeeeelp! ;__;


    Is there a better way to bring them the rules closer?

  2. #2
    Dude, you aren't in the wrong. If someone is playing an event halfway meta team, they're reading forums on Reddit or here (I don't Reddit myself, but I hear of its Dice Masters board being somewhat popping, for a sub-Reddit about a new dice/card game), or wherever else, and you can't just netdeck without reading about your team. I mean... you can, but it's just a total display of complete lack of respect for your opponent or the event in general.

    Net-decking, without thinking at all about how the team plays or could interact, especially something meta that's won or been in top 8s/16s, is just a way to show off how awful you are... and not just at Dice Masters. It's just rude. It's basically a way of showing your opponents that you assume you can just buy or at least net-deck your way to victory, and that if they don't have a matching meta team that the net-decker has seen, also, they assume it's not comparable.

    To literally answer your question: no, you are not wrong for thinking that someone net-decking a full fledged meta team should at least try to get some grip on it past thinking, "Dur, this won, now I win."

    I've seen this in a lot of games; it's especially and more often and more easily seen when there's a bigger money divide between the teams. In Magic, for instance, where cost is SUCH a big thing, and a $400 team isn't even much in a full fledged tournament, someone will just go onto this one website I remember when I used to play Magic that both has a card database and a database of winning teams from past events, and just click "buy cards" of all the cards on the team and straight up buy a team, being linked to a store that sells Magic card singles, with everything added to the shopping cart... and without owning anything except mana of the cards on it, and choosing even a local game store regular constructed weekly tournament winning deck, someone is looking at a oissubke $500-$800 or more, not to even get into anything at a higher level than local store event, or in other formats other than the most recent sets (Standard), with the older cards.

    Anyway, especially when someone has spent a lot on a "net-deck," or even if they already owned the cards but are aware of their very high price value, they'll see a team across from them that doesn't have any obvious either meta and/or money cards, and completely discount it, getting even indignant when the deck starts beating theirs, and start trying to read the cards in a different way because "there's no way that could be beating my Tsarina and Hellblazer and Gobby," or not knowing the most recent rulings, etc...

    It's natural human psychology... for a lazy, unoriginal person at least. It's one thing to netdeck, even, but like, look into the team and think about it at least - I don't know exactly, but don't just google "Dice Masters world champion," copy the build, and expect to just come in and steam-roll. It applies to other games, too, such as Magic, and even HeroClix recently, but this is about Dice Masters.

    Anyway, I can completely see what the OP is talking about. I fortunately haven't seen it yet in Dice Masters, because I play with a great group, but just like in any game, I can totally see that happening.

    I've definitely seen it happen at venues that aren't my regular one the few times I've played elsewhere, but not in this exact way. More like... someone is getting beat by something in a draft, like the rare lantern ring the first time someone was in a WoL draft, and losing to it, and just "insisting" that it can't work that way, and there's no way, it's BS, etc... It actually got kind of annoying, and I wasn't even the person with the rare ring or even playing in the game, obviously, but this dude kept insisting to the judge (this was during RDW, so before the SLC ruling and then real ruling, which still wouldn't have effected this situation, as it was a WoL draft only) that the ring on his opponent's team just "couldn't possibly work this way," and that, "he'd be cool this time, but he knows when he looks it up it won't really be ruled that way," etc... It actually got kind of old, especially because the person playing it was a newer player from what I understood, and I can easily see someone who's a more established player really turning someone off by talking to them like that over and over after they pull a cool and fun and good card, but nowhere near OP, and the dude says something akin to, "I'll let you play it that way," as if the judge isn't right next to him and didn't already rule in favor of the ring/against what he wanted. It really pissed me off after I played the ring dude and beat him 2-0 after maybe 15 total minutes, because he hyped it up so much it was like someone went nuclear in a knife fight... which it wasn't at all.

    Basically, and unfortunately, people just get really frustrated when what they *assume* is going to/is supposed to work doesn't, especially against something they don't already think is "at their decks' level," and can get indignant and even start reading rules funny.

    This especially applies when someone netdecks and doesn't do any research past finding a team-list.

  3. #3
    Now hold it Slapster^^ while i like your enthusiams and all, id say you would be correct for it if the person acts like this for this reasons.

    But i ment just any person that plays the game a little bit more often. And also i never talked about people that are complaining because they get beat. I know i saw that too, when they get frustrated but in most cases they even want more to learn the game to win or compete in a better way.

    I was talking about the people that think : "this game looks easy, i read the short introduction now i know the game" and then call out rule issues because they didnt informed themselfs beforehand.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    Now hold it Slapster^^ while i like your enthusiams and all, id say you would be correct for it if the person acts like this for this reasons.

    But i ment just any person that plays the game a little bit more often. And also i never talked about people that are complaining because they get beat. I know i saw that too, when they get frustrated but in most cases they even want more to learn the game to win or compete in a better way.

    I was talking about the people that think : "this game looks easy, i read the short introduction now i know the game" and then call out rule issues because they didnt informed themselfs beforehand.
    I meant to answer your question, but got sidetracked, lol - sorry. There's probably half an answer in there somewhere.

    To answer your question... which I kind of thought I did but I'll expound... I guess it depends on how the person "calls out" the rule issue they aren't informed on. If the person asks sincerely, without malice, and genuinely curious about how it works, including when an ability would hurt them badly, there's nothing wrong with that. If someone is about get hurt badly and every time starts ask about the rules, that's different. Also, I don't know if this was lost in translation, but "calling out" someone means to really put them out there for everyone to see/hear. To "call out" someone on the rules, in English, at least as far as I know, would involve being loud enough and/or making enough of a scene so that everyone at least involved in Dice Masters at the event is paying attention to your situation, and actually questioning the judge.

    You stipulated a difference between when you're judging and you aren't. Do you switch judging between a few people, and you're one of them? Do you judge once a month? How does that work?

    I ask, because you said "call out," which is a personal thing, more than questioning the rules, it's almost accusing someone of purposely playing something knowing it's not right. I'm just kind of confused.

    The reason I ask if you judge sometimes, is that... well, do you think of yourself that knows the rules better than most people you play with?

    And well.. could you give an example? That would really help.

    In general though, no, being new and not knowing the rules well, and constantly "calling out" other players would be pretty dude and definitely annoying. You'd have the judge stuck between whether they want to bring a new player on and encourage them vs. telling them to stop being a jerk, lol.

  5. #5
    Sorry if i used the wrong words. I didnt ment to let it sound like "call out". <.< sorry no my face turns red. I wanted to say that such persons then oftens tell me an issue with some rules, that shouldnt be, but for them yes. Not a real shout around the Store, only between the 2 of us a discussion starting in the game.

    When i judge , i judge with everything Wizkids gave me to supporting that.

    When i am playing i am not a judge, i am a player that also makes mistakes in the heat of the battle.

    I dont think, i know more then everybody else. I am just more informed about this and that from WKRF and maybe here, but even so not everything can be known in an instant at any time.
    I just would like to see that everybody reads the rules for the game they purchased and if they have question, ask them before a match(i always ask them and try to explain them mechanics from my cards).

    Oh and Example:

    One guy is always telling me sometimes: "Can you really do X in at that time" and i show him everytime the rulebook and then he nods and it is fine.

    Another one asked me about , why some texts are not the say wording as others but mean the same.

    The next one first doubts sometimes a rule, then says "Ohhh" and then "ahhhh" and wants to use it too in his next team(this i like, it shows determination to learn more about the game!)

    Sure i am a rule-guy and i look for it when i play ( a bad habit, turns me into a serious sometimes even in fun matches if my team is heartcontent for me).

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ressless View Post
    Sorry if i used the wrong words. I didnt ment to let it sound like "call out". <.< sorry no my face turns red. I wanted to say that such persons then oftens tell me an issue with some rules, that shouldnt be, but for them yes. Not a real shout around the Store, only between the 2 of us a discussion starting in the game.

    When i judge , i judge with everything Wizkids gave me to supporting that.

    When i am playing i am not a judge, i am a player that also makes mistakes in the heat of the battle.

    I dont think, i know more then everybody else. I am just more informed about this and that from WKRF and maybe here, but even so not everything can be known in an instant at any time.
    I just would like to see that everybody reads the rules for the game they purchased and if they have question, ask them before a match(i always ask them and try to explain them mechanics from my cards).

    Oh and Example:

    One guy is always telling me sometimes: "Can you really do X in at that time" and i show him everytime the rulebook and then he nods and it is fine.

    Another one asked me about , why some texts are not the say wording as others but mean the same.

    The next one first doubts sometimes a rule, then says "Ohhh" and then "ahhhh" and wants to use it too in his next team(this i like, it shows determination to learn more about the game!)

    Sure i am a rule-guy and i look for it when i play ( a bad habit, turns me into a serious sometimes even in fun matches if my team is heartcontent for me).
    I'd say it's a problem if the person asking questions isn't doing so purely out of curiosity, but because they think either they will gain an advantage because of how they read the rules/you'll gain a disadvantage (same thing). That's *normally,* but not always, pretty clear. If someone honestly just wants to learn all the right habits, maybe they just don't have great social skills? But there are definitely people who will come to questioning every rule that isn't going in their favor.

    In which case, no, that's not cool at all.

  7. #7
    So, if I get your original question. You are asking how to get people back to playing a 'legal' game. For most of the casual players around, just them playing with someone whom knows the rules helps a lot. Second, for new players I like to make sure that they go over the Recap / Turn Summary at the back of the rulebooks and have the Lexicon handy. During a match, we try to limit the discourse and get a this is how it is played after the turn. Somethings, come up a lot for first time players, but most of that is resolved with the Turn Summary. It is only the crazier things like Attacking alone or counting characters that are confusing for first time users.

    As for people nerdy King and not understanding how to play what the are using rules-wise: there is no real way to correct this behavior; other than them losing a lot. You have to know how to use the tools.

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