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Thread: Spectre and Hulk

  1. #1

    Spectre and Hulk

    Spectre - Blinded by Sin

    While Spectre is active, all character dice except Spectre must attack each turn.

    Hulk - Smash!

    Hulk can only attack alone.

    What happens if I have Spectre, Hulk and any other character(s) active when I enter the attack step? Does Hulk not get to attack because something else is attacking as well? Does Hulk attack and then nothing else attacks? Does Spectre override Hulk's ability and everything on my board sans Spectre attacks? Do I get to choose which ability the game recognizes first, and so I can either have the game see Spectre's ability first, forcing everything but Hulk to attack, or see Hulk's ability first, making him the only thing able to attack?

  2. #2
    I think Hulk doesn't attack.

    "...can only attack alone" is equivalent to "...can't attack with others" and "can't" beats "must".

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I think Hulk doesn't attack.

    "...can only attack alone" is equivalent to "...can't attack with others" and "can't" beats "must".
    I would say it's almost equivalent. Just like it's almost equivalent to "if Hulk attacks, other characters cannot attack." So now what?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    I would say it's almost equivalent. Just like it's almost equivalent to "if Hulk attacks, other characters cannot attack." So now what?
    I disagree.

    Hulk's ability does not limit what other characters can do, it only limits what he can do.

  5. #5
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    That's fair, and I can see the logic (though there is enough room in the wording for interpretation I would expect you can see how I arrived at my interpretation, too). BUT, what if Hulk is the first character I assign to attack while Spectre is active?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    That's fair, and I can see the logic (though there is enough room in the wording for interpretation I would expect you can see how I arrived at my interpretation, too). BUT, what if Hulk is the first character I assign to attack while Spectre is active?
    Attackers are declared simultaneously.

  7. #7
    Unless you read Master Beholder's card text.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    Unless you read Master Beholder's card text.
    Exception to the rule!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    Attackers are declared simultaneously.
    But does the declaration of attack resolve independently? I *think* (based on all other interactions needing to resolve independently for cascading effects - a principle will enough documented to not need reiterated here) one of two outcomes are possible (and the attacker may even have some say in the matter):

    1. Hulk (and Hulk only) attacks.
    2. All characters not Hulk (or Spectre) attack.

    These are, essentially, simultaneous effects. I will stipulate that declaration of attacks are simultaneous. As I have two simultaneous effects to resolve (with both Spectre and Hulk in my field with, say, 3 other characters) I choose which to resolve first. If I have Spectre and you have Hulk, you choose to attack with Hulk or everyone else (by activating Hulk's ability, you prevent Spectre's ability from triggering, and your abilities happen before mine since you are the active player).

  10. #10
    I understand the logic.

    I just think it's wrong.

    Spectre's ability is not triggered, it is just in effect at all times.

    So, while Spectre is active, you must attack with all characters that can attack.

    You don't get the option to ignore that.

    And, Hulk cannot attack if other characters attack, therefore he doesn't attack.

  11. #11
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    Perhaps triggered was a poor choice of words. Is Hulk's ability not in effect at all times? Why does Spectre trump Hulk?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    Perhaps triggered was a poor choice of words. Is Hulk's ability not in effect at all times? Why does Spectre trump Hulk?
    Hulk's ability is indeed in effect at all times, but Spectre does not trump Hulk, Hulk trumps Spectre.

    That is, Spectre forces you to attempt to attack with everything. Hulk, at this point says "but, I can't attack if everyone else is", and so he doesn't attack.

  13. #13
    How can we be so sure that it doesn't go:

    Hulk: "SMASH!"
    Spectre: "Everyone slam your face into the opponent"
    Hulk: "Sorry, I'm already attacking. The rest of y'all are gonna have to wait. SMASH!"

  14. #14

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by alleyviper View Post
    How can we be so sure that it doesn't go:

    Hulk: "SMASH!"
    Spectre: "Everyone slam your face into the opponent"
    Hulk: "Sorry, I'm already attacking. The rest of y'all are gonna have to wait. SMASH!"
    And this is why I think we must follow the instructions for simultaneous effects, which, admittedly, makes resolution somewhat murky if players are unclear about their options in this scenario.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    And this is why I think we must follow the instructions for simultaneous effects, which, admittedly, makes resolution somewhat murky if players are unclear about their options in this scenario.
    I really don't see how that applies in this instance.

    With triggered abilities it's clear - you have multiple abilities that need to resolve simultaneously and the controller of those abilities get choose the order.

    But, in this instance we're not dealing with triggered abilities that need to resolve, we're dealing with continuous abilities that are always in effect as long as the characters are active.

    In that case, the only rule that seems, to me, to apply is "can't beats must".

    And Spectre's ability is clearly a "must" and Hulk's can be seen as a "can't".

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    and Hulk's can be seen as a "can't".
    Precisely. And I see it as can't for other characters whilst you see it as can't for Hulk. In the age of applying effects to other characters (Lantern Ring, Deadpool - Jack, SR Constantine), this application of an ability that is otherwise debatable should be considered - if for no other reason than one ability does not have to trump the other. Rather the rules give us a clear way to parse the interaction between them, when viewed as simultaneous.

  18. #18
    This is not a timing conflict though.

    It's a contradicting abilities conflict.

  19. #19
    If Kitty Pryde Global was used on a character and Spectre was active, would you see it as a timing conflict?

  20. #20
    There's no timing that needs to be resolved anyway because there isn't anything else outside of Spectre that Kitty's global needs to interact with.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    Precisely. And I see it as can't for other characters whilst you see it as can't for Hulk. In the age of applying effects to other characters (Lantern Ring, Deadpool - Jack, SR Constantine), this application of an ability that is otherwise debatable should be considered - if for no other reason than one ability does not have to trump the other. Rather the rules give us a clear way to parse the interaction between them, when viewed as simultaneous.
    While I can see your point, think about this:

    I use Enrage on one of your characters (not Hulk). On your turn, that action says that your character must attack. By your interpretation, you can simply declare Hulk an attacker, which in your view would give your other character a "can't attack" status; since can't trumps must, this would allow you to completely ignore this action.

    Also, I just think it is much simpler to view Hulk as a can't on himself, rather than trying to interpret his ability as giving a can't to every other fielded character. On KISS principle alone, I would favor Scorpion0x17's interpretation.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dwilhelmi View Post
    While I can see your point, think about this:

    I use Enrage on one of your characters (not Hulk). On your turn, that action says that your character must attack. By your interpretation, you can simply declare Hulk an attacker, which in your view would give your other character a "can't attack" status; since can't trumps must, this would allow you to completely ignore this action.

    Also, I just think it is much simpler to view Hulk as a can't on himself, rather than trying to interpret his ability as giving a can't to every other fielded character. On KISS principle alone, I would favor Scorpion0x17's interpretation.
    I kind of get this comparison but I dont think its quite apples to apples. I would take this as the attacker chosen must attack before other decisions are made like trumping it with Hulk. With Spectre all characters are sent to attack at the same time. So who goes? Hulk or everyone else?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by koolkat67 View Post
    With Spectre all characters are sent to attack at the same time. So who goes? Hulk or everyone else?
    This is precisely why I think Hulk ends up not attacking.

    You have no choice but to try to assign ALL your characters to attack, including Hulk, those affected by Kitty Pryde global, or even those that simply "cannot attack".

    In the case of the latter, they simply say "nope, can't attack" and are exempted from Spectre's ability.

    Those affected by Kitty Global are also exempted if you choose not to pay the life cost.

    And Hulk, well, in my view, if there other characters that you are being forced to attack with, then Hulk simply says "nope, can't attack", and is exempted, just like those with a simple "cannot attack" ability.

    I don't see you getting a choice of what order you assign characters to attack in (Beholder being the one notable exception to that rule), everything is thus assigned simultaneously, and, unlike Lantern Ring and Colossus, Hulk does not speak of other characters, only of himself, and so I do not see his ability as "other characters cannot attack if I do", but "I cannot attack if others do".

  24. #24

  25. #25
    I'm going to get on board on this one, Hulk cant attack, because everyone else is attacking.

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