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Thread: All-out combo build of Big Entrance- What do you think?

  1. #1

    All-out combo build of Big Entrance- What do you think?

    This is a build that is focused purely on trying to get a third-turn kill. Let me know what you think.

    http://dicemastersdb.com/team-builde...1187-3;1409-1;

  2. #2

  3. #3
    Here's the optimal play:

    T1: Roll 1 mask, 1 bolt, 1 shield and any other energy - Resurrection, Red Dragon global, buy Big Entrance - end of opponent's turn PXG

    T2: Rolling Big Entrance and 6 sidekick dice - roll 1 sidekick, Big Entrance action face, 4 fist, 1 mask - buy 4 Guy Gardner, field sidekick - end of opponent's turn PXG

    T3: Roll four Guy Gardner character faces (with energy from the two sidekick dice to field, if needed) - swing with all Guy Garders and sidekick for a minimum of 25 damage

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by cbone3 View Post
    T2: Rolling Big Entrance and 6 sidekick dice - roll 1 sidekick, Big Entrance action face, 4 fist, 1 mask - buy 4 Guy Gardner, field sidekick - end of opponent's turn PXG
    While the turn one seems like it could easily happen, the turn 2 is just so ridiculously difficult to actually have happen that there's honestly, in my opinion, not even a reason to bank on that happening. You should always assume rolls aren't going to go your way and you find a way to force them to work for you.

    Also, I just want to point out that I think you may have put the wrong Guy Gardner in your list. Which I was going to mention anyway. I'm assuming that you mean to put Blinding Rage and will continue to operate under that assumption because he's just strictly the best version. Especially in a BE deck.

    Anyway, I was actually recently talking a team like this over with some other guys on Reddit. We came up with a list that works about a turn slower but it seems much more consistent. Also it's pretty similar to the list you're looking for. They were using Lantern Ring, but I think that Ring isn't needed for this iteration of the deck. Though a much slower version might use it by trading out something like the PxG for it.

    http://www.dicemastersdb.com/teams/team/?id=9174

    That's the team. Like I said, it's a bit slower, but it gives you plenty of room to operate with. It's incredibly similar to your team and is probably based on a similar idea. Like I said, the original version was using Lantern Ring for this, but I just felt like it slows it down too much. And you don't have enough reliable fists to get from it. Unless you end up rolling your characters as fists. Which you absolutely don't want.

    It has a bit more setup than the version you have, but it also provides quite a bit more utility if you need it instead of other cheap things to buy. Giving you the chance to fall back on the control route to force all of your damage through if you can't manage to kill them by turn five. Also four Tsarinas that you can pretty much swing in with every turn can get really scary quite fast. I just think that the Kobold swarm route can help quite a bit with a team setup like this. It can help you maintain the pressure you're trying to apply while also giving you a faster second BE turn.

    Those are my thoughts on it though. Pretty much don't ever think you're going to get that optimal turn. I know you have other things to purchase like the Kitty and the Hellblazer and stuff, but those don't allow for a turn 3 kill. You have to assume that rolls will never go your way and you have to struggle to make the game do what you want.

  5. #5
    Optimal first turn is about 75%. Optimal second turn is about 25%, but we only really need three Guys to go off (I did accidentally hit the wrong version).

  6. #6
    That 25% sounds pretty high to me considering you don't have much manipulation outside of Parallax. Which, if you're using that, you're already going to fall behind due to the nature of the team.

    To go along with that, how do you deal with an opposing Hellblazer?

    Also, how do you only need three Guys to go off? Is that assuming you roll more than one sidekick?

    Your explanations are terse and confusing.

  7. #7
    How do you deal with an opposing Hellblazer? You don't, really. This is just an attempt to see how fast it can go. I wouldn't actually play this. It's a lot like Belcher in MtG. It's brutally fast and there is not much you can do if it goes off, but you are exposed if it doesn't hit quickly. If you go first, though, your opponent may not see that Hellblazer.

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Frubzors View Post
    While the turn one seems like it could easily happen, the turn 2 is just so ridiculously difficult to actually have happen that there's honestly, in my opinion, not even a reason to bank on that happening. You should always assume rolls aren't going to go your way and you find a way to force them to work for you.
    You really only need 3 Guy Gardner to be lethal. So, you really don't need optimal rolls to win on turn 3.

    As I've continued trying to work on this, I've come to realize that Parallax is questionable (though a life-saver on a few third turns where I needed a character face) and Tsarina is virtually useless.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by cbone3 View Post
    Here's the optimal play:

    T1: Roll 1 mask, 1 bolt, 1 shield and any other energy - Resurrection, Red Dragon global, buy Big Entrance - end of opponent's turn PXG

    T2: Rolling Big Entrance and 6 sidekick dice - roll 1 sidekick, Big Entrance action face, 4 fist, 1 mask - buy 4 Guy Gardner, field sidekick - end of opponent's turn PXG

    T3: Roll four Guy Gardner character faces (with energy from the two sidekick dice to field, if needed) - swing with all Guy Garders and sidekick for a minimum of 25 damage
    So.... what if you roll energy on the BE twice? Now what? What if you can't buy more than 1 or 2 Guy Gardners because you rolled a shield or two?

    This seems like VERY specific roll requirements, hence very inconsistent

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    So.... what if you roll energy on the BE twice? Now what? What if you can't buy more than 1 or 2 Guy Gardners because you rolled a shield or two?

    This seems like VERY specific roll requirements, hence very inconsistent
    If you whiff on the BE, it's rough. That's one of the reasons I like Parallax. If you hit a couple of shields, you buy a couple of Constantines. As long as you hit BE, you can purchase 4 characters that you'll be rolling next turn.

    As far as strategies when you don't roll an automatic turn 3 kill, you have to look at how much damage you can do. If you hit two GGs, two Constantines and a sidekick, you've done 18 damage (counting the first turn Red Dragon damage) if you hit every die's lowest attack. In two turns, you will have purchased two basic actions for lethal damage. If you can't get close to lethal, you wall-up and try to use your numbers to push damage through. You also have Red Dragon which can use breath weapon to finish games off.

    You don't play this team to be a midrange control team. You play it to hit the face early. I'm not defending this deck as the next tier 1 powerhouse. I'm trying to see just how fast and consistent it can be.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    This seems like VERY specific roll requirements, hence very inconsistent
    This is pretty much my entire thought process on this whole team. Thus why all my responses to this topic are saying the same thing. The chances of rolling exactly what you need are so ridiculously low that there's no point in banking on having it happen.

    Don't get me wrong, you have the Mirri/Kitty/Constantine so you have other things to buy as well and you could potentially flood the board pretty fast. But don't say 'Oh, you just buy four Guys and you win' because that's not how this game works.

    Besides the fact that you probably will never be able to buy that many Guys that early, there's still the problem of actually rolling them. Let's say you did buy four Guys. They go in to the bag. Sweet. Now you draw them out. You roll all four of them and the two sidekicks you PxG'd. And you roll two faces and the other two roll energy. So you reroll them............and you get energy again. Cool, you can buy things with that energy, but you'll already get put behind due to the nature of your team.

    And, as above posted by Nemesis, what happens if you roll energy on BE twice?

    The chances on this team working are incredibly low. You can try and set yourself up with Rez global and BE all you want, but that doesn't mean you will always roll optimally.

    Don't get me wrong, there is still a chance that it will roll exactly the way you want. And you will just rush them down and beat them with it exactly like you said. The number of times you will have that happen is very small compared to how many times you'll just fizzle.

  14. #14
    What do you do if your opponent fields a character or SK between turns 1 and 2 themselves? You get blocked and now all momentum is gone. Granted, if they have no blockers, than yea, good game. If you are banking on this, than use Morphing Jars with 4 SKs and you are more likely to pull it off.

  15. #15
    Take it for what it's worth, gang. I was going to bore you with lots of statistics, but I won't. Just realize that you should have this in your testing gauntlet, because if you aren't ready, you will get rolled. In Magic, Mike Flores' "Who's the Beatdown?" was a game-changing theory article. If you see Big Entrance, you are not the beatdown. Know your role. You are playing the control team. If you have a sidekick, field it rather than rerolling it. If you play this team and do not keep your sidekicks in the first two turns, you run a tremendous risk of getting beat before you take a relevant turn. Yes, it's only a 20-25% turn 3 kill. Those are still good enough odds that I would test heavily against it.

  16. #16
    I'm not going to argue with you on this. There's no point. If somebody sits down across the table from something like this and doesn't realise how to beat it, they're just bad players. There is no in depth strategy you need to know. It's all luck based. You get sidekicks, you keep them. You stall until you can get board presence. Then you win.

    I completely disagree that we '...should have this in your testing gauntlet.' It's a team based around either managing to immediately beat you or fizzle out in to nothing. If they don't kill you, you win.

    That's all I have to say on the matter. The concept is great, the execution is terrible.

  17. #17
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frubzors View Post
    I'm not going to argue with you on this. There's no point. If somebody sits down across the table from something like this and doesn't realise how to beat it, they're just bad players. There is no in depth strategy you need to know. It's all luck based. You get sidekicks, you keep them. You stall until you can get board presence. Then you win.

    I completely disagree that we '...should have this in your testing gauntlet.' It's a team based around either managing to immediately beat you or fizzle out in to nothing. If they don't kill you, you win.

    That's all I have to say on the matter. The concept is great, the execution is terrible.
    I've played against similar teams that displayed remarkable consistency.

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  19. #19
    I've seen some Big Entrance, Hulk Out, and Formerly Weapon Ten builds.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    I've played against similar teams that displayed remarkable consistency.
    I'd love to see the lists they were running, because I've played against multiple teams that are built pretty much the exact same way that have pretty much zero consistency.

    Also, I feel I need to reiterate this: I'm not saying that this team is bad. I'm saying that it's inconsistent and easy to play against. It's really just a matter of what you roll. If you see them plop down a team with BE/Guy/Mirri/Kitty/Constantine, you need to realise how you're going to have to play against it. Which is roll for sidekicks until you can stall out the game and come back. And you have to know that sometimes letting damage through is a good thing. There are also globals that can shut it down.

    There is only so much you can do yourself to try and beat this team. Yes, it can be fast. Yes, it can potentially kill you before you've even had a chance to do anything. No, that doesn't happen as often as people think.

    I'll say it now, I agree with cbone brining up that article about 'Who's the Beatdown?' It's incredibly true in this game as well as many others. If you don't realise who is what, then you're going to have a bad time. The reason I think bringing up that article is a great idea is because this is the stereotypical aggro team that he would talk about. Unless you're playing the exact same thing, you're the control and this team is the beatdown. And that's not something you learn from playing against it.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by blueblitz View Post
    what if your opponent has 3 sidekicks to block it?
    You're in a lot of trouble then and you're trying to push damage through with a team that is frankly not really built for the mid- and late-game. The reason I've worked with this build a lot is because my team in Magic ALWAYS put the fastest team in the format in our gauntlet. I want to know how I plan to beat the best team, the fastest team, the most popular team and my worst match-up. Like I said, I personally wouldn't play this in a tourney I really cared about winning because I value consistency over speed. Still, as @Jthomash2 just pointed out, these teams are more consistent than people give them credit for. And they are an absolute terror to face if you are going second. When you're praying to hit a sidekick on turn one or two, it almost serves as pseudo disruption.

  22. #22
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    I think my point is/was testing against this is important to know what to do with your team when you face these teams and happen to not roll SK. When and how much damage should you let through? It's not like those answers will be obvious in the moment, and I'd be surprised not to see at least a few Guy teams in PDC events.

  23. #23
    the element of surprise is the main advantage of your deck.
    if your opponent is not aware on the deck you are using or how it works, then he will be unable to prepare what's coming

  24. #24
    2015 Canadian and 2016 US National Champion
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    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueblitz View Post
    the element of surprise is the main advantage of your deck.
    if your opponent is not aware on the deck you are using or how it works, then he will be unable to prepare what's coming
    Probably true of other games. I am not convinced it's true in Dice Masters. All information is known. Prepare enough, and you can limit surprises to a minimum.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    Probably true of other games. I am not convinced it's true in Dice Masters. All information is known. Prepare enough, and you can limit surprises to a minimum.
    In dicemasters it's similar to the 4 move checkmate in chess. In fact, the top players in this game look for ways to use standard tactics in ways that aren't apparent. The best example being Grundy and BEWD as a walking Millennium Puzzle. Could a player just use the puzzle? Sure, but Grundy was a new way to have the same effect on the fly. In regards to these surprise tactics, they work when they aren't used over and over again. They can throw new opponents in a loop, but yes, if you are prepared for them they aren't as damaging (if not at all).
    Last edited by bahamut7; 11-17-2015 at 06:48 PM.

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