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Thread: Hobgoblin combo

  1. #1

    Hobgoblin combo

    How does hobgoblin Mad Fashion Designer work with wasp/jinzo? Would the opponent still get burned or since the global would be canceled so would the tax?

    HG: pay 2bolt to cancel global

    Jinzo: must pay 2life to use global

    Wasp: when opp uses global burn 1

    I think the jinzo would combo but not the wasp, but wanted another opinion.

  2. #2
    Page 21 of the ASM rulebook:

    "Preventing and Redirecting
    Some powers prevent a game effect (damage, drawing a die, etc.) This includes cards that "take no damage." When an action is prevented, all of the effects of that ability are canceled, and that effect can no longer be reacted to. Costs for that ability are not refunded."

    By the rulebook, your opponent would pay 2 life (Jinzo), take 1 damage (Wasp), and than you could spend the 2 bolts and cancel the global. Glorious.

  3. #3
    But *you* would have to have an active Jinzo, Wasp, and Hobgoblin.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    But *you* would have to have an active Jinzo, Wasp, and Hobgoblin.
    Yea? That's the assumption for the scenario.

  5. #5
    Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. If you can manage to pull it off it's an amazing combo

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut7 View Post
    Page 21 of the ASM rulebook:

    "Preventing and Redirecting
    Some powers prevent a game effect (damage, drawing a die, etc.) This includes cards that "take no damage." When an action is prevented, all of the effects of that ability are canceled, and that effect can no longer be reacted to. Costs for that ability are not refunded."

    By the rulebook, your opponent would pay 2 life (Jinzo), take 1 damage (Wasp), and than you could spend the 2 bolts and cancel the global. Glorious.
    Actually, Jinzo's cost happens BEFORE a global is used, and Wasp's damage occurs after, as a reaction. Wasp wouldn't combo with Hobgoblin. "that effect can no longer be reacted to"

    This is a subtle difference, but is clearly defined in the rules. A better combo would be Professor X: Powerful Telepath and Jinzo Then they would have to pay 4 and get no benefit.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Actually, Jinzo's cost happens BEFORE a global is used, and Wasp's damage occurs after, as a reaction. Wasp wouldn't combo with Hobgoblin. "that effect can no longer be reacted to"

    This is a subtle difference, but is clearly defined in the rules. A better combo would be Professor X: Powerful Telepath and Jinzo Then they would have to pay 4 and get no benefit.
    I see your logic, but I must respectfully disagree in regards to Wasp. The rulebooks state that you must attempt to complete an ability or action fully before resolving or moving onto another.

    Opponent pays energy to use a global. They must also pay 2 life because of Jinzo. We both agree on this. The global is than done, Wasp than triggers. At this point, each action has been resolved fully. Than if HG's ability is used, the global's effect is cancelled. You couldn't wait later in the turn, it would still need to be the next action completed, but I see no interruption. Now if you are the inactive player with Jinzo, Wasp, and HG, and you declared you were doing all this, the active player could choose the order (except Jinzo) and negate Wasp in that case. This is what I believe and I could be wrong. Fortunately, this kind of combo isn't a wide spread tactic, so it's not an immediate emergency that we pray for wizkids to rule on (though a simple clarification from them would still be nice).

    Also, Prof Jinzo is an excellent combo.

  8. #8
    Active player doesn't choose all order, only their own effects. Each player chooses their own order for their effects, with all active players happening first. So as the owner of Wasp and Hobgoblin, I could choose the order and use both of them (since both are reactive effects to the opponent using the Global).

  9. #9

  10. #10
    I don't think you do get to choose the order of Hobgoblin and Wasp.

    If you use Hobgoblin, I believe, it cancels the effect as it is happening, and, do Wasp doesn't trigger.

    If you let Wasp trigger then it is too late to use Hobgoblin.

    The reason for this, I believe, is that whilst Hobgoblin is a reactive global, Wasp is not. Her ability is a triggered effect.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I don't think you do get to choose the order of Hobgoblin and Wasp.

    If you use Hobgoblin, I believe, it cancels the effect as it is happening, and, do Wasp doesn't trigger.

    If you let Wasp trigger then it is too late to use Hobgoblin.

    The reason for this, I believe, is that whilst Hobgoblin is a reactive global, Wasp is not. Her ability is a triggered effect.
    I agree with you that Wasp is a reactive ability and therefore you don't get to choose her triggering or not, but I disagree with that Hobgoblin would cancel Wasp. As her ability essentially automatically triggers (makes her dangerous to use with Imprison) and HG is a choice, you could still choose to use his ability after Wasp has done her thing.

    I do hope we haven't stumbled onto another Warth or Lantern Ring situation. lol

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion0x17 View Post
    I don't think you do get to choose the order of Hobgoblin and Wasp.

    If you use Hobgoblin, I believe, it cancels the effect as it is happening, and, do Wasp doesn't trigger.

    If you let Wasp trigger then it is too late to use Hobgoblin.

    The reason for this, I believe, is that whilst Hobgoblin is a reactive global, Wasp is not. Her ability is a triggered effect.
    Exactly this. Hobgoblin is a prevention effect, it prevents the global be cancelling it. Prevention abilities can interrupt an action before it is fully complete. Wasp is definitely a triggered REACTION. If you and an opponent are both a 1 and you kill your opponent with Wasp global, their wasp global doesn't trigger and can't hurt you.

  13. #13
    Perhaps Mapping out the actions may better help with this.

    Player A has Jinzo, Wasp, Hobgoblin, and 2 bolts in reserve.
    Player B uses a global.

    1.) Player B pays the energy requirement and 2 life because of Jinzo (this part no one disagrees with)
    Here's where we get lost in translation.

    2.) Wasp triggers and deals 1 damage to player B

    As we have agreed, Wasp is a triggered while active ability. She will do this regardless of a global succeeding or failing.

    3.) Player A pays 2 bolts to cancel the effect of the global (similar to spinning down Doomcaliber Knight)

    HG's ability has to wait in line as the player cannot stop Wasp. After her damage, Player A is then able to use or not use the 2 bolts.

    4.) Player B loses a total of 3 life and 1 energy with the global effect being cancelled

    It is because that Wasp is a triggered ability (no control from the player) that I believe the combo would indeed work. I'm not following the logic for Wasp and HG not working together. If Wasp was a voluntary ability, than I could see it.
    Last edited by bahamut7; 11-20-2015 at 10:34 PM.

  14. #14
    The flaw in your example comes down to the question, is "cancel" a prevention effect.

    If cancel == prevent then wasp never triggers, because the ability was prevented from resolving and the ability was never used, and thus never triggers wasp.

    If cancel =\= prevent, then Hobgoblin can only trigger after the global completely resolves, and all Hobgoblin can do is cancel the lingering effects of that global. Effects that could be cancelled this way include stat increases, blocker manipulation effects, and effects like Shockwave or casualties globals. It could not cancel things like wasp global, magic Missile global and aguably could not cancel a PXG or distraction global, as these movements are instantaneous (again, agrumentative, and not really relevant until the major question is decided).

    So, does Hobgoblin happen before or after the ability fully resolves?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    The flaw in your example comes down to the question, is "cancel" a prevention effect.

    If cancel == prevent then wasp never triggers, because the ability was prevented from resolving and the ability was never used, and thus never triggers wasp.

    If cancel =\= prevent, then Hobgoblin can only trigger after the global completely resolves, and all Hobgoblin can do is cancel the lingering effects of that global. Effects that could be cancelled this way include stat increases, blocker manipulation effects, and effects like Shockwave or casualties globals. It could not cancel things like wasp global, magic Missile global and aguably could not cancel a PXG or distraction global, as these movements are instantaneous (again, agrumentative, and not really relevant until the major question is decided).

    So, does Hobgoblin happen before or after the ability fully resolves?
    Excellent point! Exactly why earlier I posted this question to the rules forum...no idea if it will ever get answered, but the question itself was whether or not if Hobgoblin or Doomcaliber cancel the entire process or merely the effect of the global (the action itself). I still believe that Hobgoblin has to happen afterwards (immediately after the other abilities resolve), but it still comes down to whether or not cancelling an effect stops any triggers that would have occurred because of the action aka Wasp.

    To further clarify, I see HG and DC as a undo type of character. They have to wait for the ability to resolve, but can step in and erase the effect. It is reactionary, but it still has to wait in the que. This is similar to using Loki to disable Jocasta. Loki pings her and wipes the text, Jocasta would normally absorb the damage and redirect an equal amount to you, but Loki's ability has to fully resolve, meaning he wipes her text before she can use her ability.

    This is definitely one of the questions that I seriously hopes gets an answer as this isn't a subjective question but an objective question about the core mechanics of the game itself. I have no doubt future characters will appear that could be put in this situation as well.

  16. #16
    Sadly, it is questions like these, that address core game mechanics, that seem to be the least likely to get answered by WizKids. Even though they are the questions we most need answers to.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    So, does Hobgoblin happen before or after the ability fully resolves?
    I think his effect has to happen before the ability fully resolves.

    And the reason I believe that is the case is those examples in which, though possible because of the completely open nature of the game, the effects of an ability are none trivial to undo.

    (And, if Hobgoblin does not completely prevent, or undo, all such effects, then it cannot be said to "cancel" the ability.)

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