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Thread: Redirecting and "when targeted" effects

  1. #1

    Redirecting and "when targeted" effects

    So, the guys and I were discussing Storm whether Witch and Wonder Girl Cassie Sandsmark and how they would interact, and we came to a few conclusions that we wanted to discuss and share.

    1) Redirecting effects do not trigger "when targeted" effects.

    At first, this may seem a leap, but follow along. Each action in Dice Masters seems to have two parts, declaration of intent and resolution. Between those two steps are an opportunity to play redirect or prevention effects.

    So, with an action die play, the die is used the target is announced, and reactions are permitted. Storm can then be used to change the target, after which the action is resolved (unless more reactions are paid for).

    Most folks would agree with the above, and the framework for the above can be carried over to other actions, like character abilities, globals, damage, attackers and blockers. for example, damage is assigned, reactions triggered, damage resolved.

    Now here is where things get tricky, if I were to use a redirect ability to change a target, this would not trigger "when targeted effects" such as Cassie Sandsmark or Rare Cloak effects.

    This is akin to the rulings on swapping attackers or swapping defenders, and not triggering when block, when blocked or when attacks effects.

    For example, if I attack with a sidekick, then you block, then I poly the SK out for Wolverine FWX, Wolverine would not get +4/+4 for "attacking". Similarly, if I target my Storm with polymorph and pay for Storms global to redirect to Cassie, she would not trigger her " when targetted" effect, as she wasn't targetted, she was just redirected to be the new target

    There are more intricacies to the interaction than simply this though, for example Lord of D can't be a target, while Supeman can't be targeted. This difference implies that Storm can redirect to Supes, but not to Lord of D.

    Finally, the most relevant conclusion this train of thought led us to was that Cassie Sandsmark, can't trigger another Cassie Sandsmark. The first Cassie would trigger as a reaction to being targeted, while additional Cassie's would not trigger, because they are not targeted, but instead are made the new target.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    I think that the comparison between redirects and assigning attackers or blockers is flawed and leads to the wrong conclusion.

    When declaring blockers and attackers, there is a limit to the amount of times these may be declared, once. Attacking and blocking effects only activate during this time since it's the declaration that they hinge upon.
    Redirection does not fall into this problem since effect and abilities are not limited by the single instance of declaration. Each instance of redirection must have a target and creates a new window for reactive effects to fall into.

    The point about redirection is that the targeting stipulations of the redirected effect are ignored, however, the source of the redirect (say, Wonder Girl or Storm) must be able to target the new intended recipient.

    For instance, Thor - Worthy can't be targeted by opposing action dice with a single target. This means that I could not use Vulnerability against my opponent's Thor. However, I could target another character and then use the Storm global to redirect Vulnerability to Thor.
    On the other hand, if my opponent also had the Lord of D. Ring combo in place, I would not be able to redirect Vulnerability to the opposing Thor since my Storm global would not have a legal target to redirect to.

    The crux of the matter is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    ... Each action in Dice Masters seems to have two parts, declaration of intent and resolution. Between those two steps are an opportunity to play redirect or prevention effects.

    So, with an action die play, the die is used the target is announced, and reactions are permitted. Storm can then be used to change the target, after which the action is resolved (unless more reactions are paid for)...
    Redirect effects create a new timing window, replete with a secondary declaration of intent for the target, but using the same resolution window. Redirect effects very much do target and interact with targeting related ability just as would be expected.

  3. #3
    After following along, I think I still see it as a leap.

    As an aside, the Jocasta ruling makes me a little nervous about using the redirect rules on any effect that doesn't use the word redirect, and not having redirect on the keyword list is also unnerving...

    But back on topic; the rule book definition for redirecting says "the target of the effect changes from its original target to the new one as described in the game text", so I would think that if the game text says to choose a new target then you are targeting, if it said to swap the target or something like that then it wouldn't be targeting.

    Asiding again, I could see WKs clarifying the redirect rule so that choosing a new target is not targeting. That would prevent redirect loops, between Cassies for instance.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by CeeQue View Post
    After following along, I think I still see it as a leap.

    As an aside, the Jocasta ruling makes me a little nervous about using the redirect rules on any effect that doesn't use the word redirect, and not having redirect on the keyword list is also unnerving...

    But back on topic; the rule book definition for redirecting says "the target of the effect changes from its original target to the new one as described in the game text", so I would think that if the game text says to choose a new target then you are targeting, if it said to swap the target or something like that then it wouldn't be targeting.

    Asiding again, I could see WKs clarifying the redirect rule so that choosing a new target is not targeting. That would prevent redirect loops, between Cassies for instance.
    I don't see how using the word "swap" would avoid choosing a new target to swap it to. Polymorph and Prismatic Spray use the word "swap" and they still have to target a characters in order to go through, how does "swap" lose that targeting component after it's applied to redirect effects?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    I don't see how using the word "swap" would avoid choosing a new target to swap it to. Polymorph and Prismatic Spray use the word "swap" and they still have to target a characters in order to go through, how does "swap" lose that targeting component after it's applied to redirect effects?
    The difference here is "can't be targeted" and "can't be the target of".

    Redirects allow you to swap a targeting effect to a target, without ever " targeting" them. However, redirect effect can't make something a target, that can't be a target.

    The same can be said of effects like Brainiac's defender swap. When you swap a sidekick for another blocker in an engagement that involves UC Black Canary (can't be blocked by sidekicks) you are in effect doing the same work around that Storm would let you do to Thor. The Sidekick is now a blocker, and it is now engaged with Canary, but it was never "declared the blocker" of Canary.

    Similarly, the action die is affecting Thor, and Thor is the target of the action die, but he was never declared the target of the action die, it was redirected to him. So long as he can be a target, and wasn't "targeted", then all logical requirements are met.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    I think that the comparison between redirects and assigning attackers or blockers is flawed and leads to the wrong conclusion.

    When declaring blockers and attackers, there is a limit to the amount of times these may be declared, once. Attacking and blocking effects only activate during this time since it's the declaration that they hinge upon.
    Redirection does not fall into this problem since effect and abilities are not limited by the single instance of declaration. Each instance of redirection must have a target and creates a new window for reactive effects to fall into.
    I disagree, each ability or effect only has one instance of declaring a target. After that, redirects may change who that target is, but the target is only declared once. Similarly, attackers are only declared once, and even if for example, you attack with Beholder, activate polymorph and swap him with Wolverine, Wolverine would not get his +4/+4. There is one instance of attacking, just as I am proposing there is one instance oftargeting. Sure you could Swap, redirect or otherwise change the target, but that would not count as targeting a new target as the initial targeting has already been resolved.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    The difference here is "can't be targeted" and "can't be the target of".

    Redirects allow you to swap a targeting effect to a target, without ever " targeting" them. However, redirect effect can't make something a target, that can't be a target.

    The same can be said of effects like Brainiac's defender swap. When you swap a sidekick for another blocker in an engagement that involves UC Black Canary (can't be blocked by sidekicks) you are in effect doing the same work around that Storm would let you do to Thor. The Sidekick is now a blocker, and it is now engaged with Canary, but it was never "declared the blocker" of Canary.

    Similarly, the action die is affecting Thor, and Thor is the target of the action die, but he was never declared the target of the action die, it was redirected to him. So long as he can be a target, and wasn't "targeted", then all logical requirements are met.
    Redirect effect do allow you to shift a target without having targeted them with the initial effect, yes. The issue is that you first have to target that character with the redirect effect. With Storm's global for instance, you could use it to redirect a Possession from targeting your character to an opposing character despite it being an invalid target for Possession, but you couldn't redirect it to a Sinestro - Sinestro Corps Leader since you would be unable to target him with the Storm global.

    Redirects ignore the targeting requirements of the initial effect, but they still have their own targeting parameters they must yield to. I agree that you can make invalid targets the new "redirected" targets, but you have to be able to target them with the redirecting (not redirected) effect in the first place.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Redirect effect do allow you to shift a target without having targeted them with the initial effect, yes. The issue is that you first have to target that character with the redirect effect. With Storm's global for instance, you could use it to redirect a Possession from targeting your character to an opposing character despite it being an invalid target for Possession, but you couldn't redirect it to a Sinestro - Sinestro Corps Leader since you would be unable to target him with the Storm global.

    Redirects ignore the targeting requirements of the initial effect, but they still have their own targeting parameters they must yield to. I agree that you can make invalid targets the new "redirected" targets, but you have to be able to target them with the redirecting (not redirected) effect in the first place.
    Changing a target does not have you target a character though, it has you target an action die effect and alter its parameters. Similar to the way Mera stops damage from a character, without targeting that character. You may not have to target a character to make it a target, via redirect. Not positive on this, but I am confident, and the more I look at it the more this jives with every other game mechanic breakdown I have seen in game.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    I disagree, each ability or effect only has one instance of declaring a target. After that, redirects may change who that target is, but the target is only declared once.
    I 100% agree with this statement. However, you're declaring that the redirect effect doesn't target. A redirect effect is an ability and the relevant ones we're talking about (Storm and Wonder Girl) effect a set number characters, one. According to the definition of targeting, these redirect abilities do in fact target the character that are choosing to redirect the initial effect to.

    It breaks down like this:

    I activate an action that can only target opposing characters like Possession.
    I target your Green Dragon.
    You spend a mask and active Storm's global.
    You target my Red Dragon with the global and the Possession effect is redirected to him.
    Red Dragon was not a valid target for the initial ability, but you targeted him with a redirect, so the initial parameters are moot.
    However, you still targeted it with the global.
    It is now still under my control but bust attack when able.

    If we introduce Human Paladin into the mix, we see why redirects being targeted is an important distinction:

    I activate an action that can only target opposing characters like Possession.
    I target one of your sidekicks.
    You spend a mask and active Storm's global.
    You want to target my Red Dragon with the global, but I have a Human Paladin.
    As such, you cannot target my Red Dragon with the Storm global.
    Instead, you redirect Possession to one of your own sidekicks.

    My Red Dragon was not a valid target for your redirect ability and so you are unable to target him with the redirect effect even though you are able to apply the redirected effect to him.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Changing a target does not have you target a character though, it has you target an action die effect and alter its parameters.
    No.

    It has you target a character and apply the redirected effect to that target instead of the intended one.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    I 100% agree with this statement. However, you're declaring that the redirect effect doesn't target. A redirect effect is an ability and the relevant ones we're talking about (Storm and Wonder Girl) effect a set number characters, one. According to the definition of targeting, these redirect abilities do in fact target the character that are choosing to redirect the initial effect to.

    It breaks down like this:

    I activate an action that can only target opposing characters like Possession.
    I target your Green Dragon.
    You spend a mask and active Storm's global.
    You target my Red Dragon with the global and the Possession effect is redirected to him.
    Red Dragon was not a valid target for the initial ability, but you targeted him with a redirect, so the initial parameters are moot.
    However, you still targeted it with the global.
    It is now still under my control but bust attack when able.

    If we introduce Human Paladin into the mix, we see why redirects being targeted is an important distinction:

    I activate an action that can only target opposing characters like Possession.
    I target one of your sidekicks.
    You spend a mask and active Storm's global.
    You want to target my Red Dragon with the global, but I have a Human Paladin.
    As such, you cannot target my Red Dragon with the Storm global.
    Instead, you redirect Possession to one of your own sidekicks.

    My Red Dragon was not a valid target for your redirect ability and so you are unable to target him with the redirect effect even though you are able to apply the redirected effect to him.
    So, Summary, you think Cassie and Storm target things, I think they don't, they redirect a the target of an ability. The other 90% of the subject we agree on.

    Guess we now know what question to ask the Rules forum.


    Actually, I know what got me past that hurdle. Redirects keep the same source. So, when you're using the redirect effects, you're not actually needing to target the character, you're targeting the action die effect, altering a choice of how to resolve that effect and then resolving it. Since this change in choice is made AFTER a target has been declared, it's still the action die that is "choosing" the target, not your global.

    In essence, the problem we have now is really what are the interaction mechanic of "swap" "change" "redirect" and other target changing game mechanics?

    I believe that when you change a target, you aren't actually targeting the new target.
    I believe that when you swap a character, you are targeting the characters that are getting swapped.
    I believe that when you redirect damage, you aren't targeting the source of the damage, or the new direction it is heading.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    So, Summary, you think Cassie and Storm target things, I think they don't, they redirect an ability to a target. The other 90% of the subject we agree on.

    Guess we now know what question to ask the Rules forum.
    Except that we have a definition for what is considered targeting from that Rules Forum already.

    Abilities that effect a set number of characters and aren't detrimental to the playing character when in isolation are targeted.
    Redirect effects like Storm and Wonder Girl effect a single character and aren't detrimental to their controller in isolation.
    Ergo, they are targeted.

    It's a syllogism. It's already ruled. We don't need anything more than the current rulings to understand these effects.

    I get that sometimes we have to wait for the Rules Forum to sort out ambiguous circumstances, but this is not one of those instances because it's wholly unambiguous.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Except that we have a definition for what is considered targeting from that Rules Forum already.

    Abilities that effect a set number of characters and aren't detrimental to the playing character when in isolation are targeted.
    Redirect effects like Storm and Wonder Girl effect a single character and aren't detrimental to their controller in isolation.
    Ergo, they are targeted.

    It's a syllogism. It's already ruled. We don't need anything more than the current rulings to understand these effects.

    I get that sometimes we have to wait for the Rules Forum to sort out ambiguous circumstances, but this is not one of those instances because it's wholly unambiguous.
    I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Redirects target the effect, and have the effect choose a new target. For example, you could redirect your oppents action die effect to his Lord of D, and the source would still be considered your opponent. You wouldn't be be directly affecting Lord of D, you are affecting the action itself.

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