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Thread: Beholder: Master Aberration

  1. #1

    Beholder: Master Aberration

    So, I had my first interaction with Apologies in advance the other day, and it kicked my ass, 2 out of 3 games. So I want to come up with a way to beat it before PDC season hits my area, but to beat it, I want to know how exactly it works. Beholder specifically.

    If I have Jinzo - Trap Destroyer on the field, does he trigger when beholder attacks? 4 times? If so, can my opponent then decide to not pay 2 life for some of the abilities, AKA, can he then pick and choose what to do, or is he forced to either do all 4 and take 8, or do none?

    If i have toad - mortimer toynbee on the field, and I force my opponent's non beholder die to attack, does beholder then technically still attack first?

    Do all 4 of the beholder's basic action die triggers happen at once? AKA, if I bring fireball, which forces him to deal damage to me, thus negating imprisoned. If they happen at the same time, then imprisoned basically fizzles, but if he can choose order, then imprisoned is still VERY strong.

    How does Beholder capture die? Are they captured by him? so if I kill him, do I get my dice back? Does he actually make a 4th die appear? AKA can I use a Breaker the magical warrior to send it get rid of it and get my dice back? Or are they just in some magical land and the only way to get them back is to wait til he attacks me?

    This is breaking into strategy territory, but if there is anything else you've thought of to get around this guy, I'd love to hear it. All I came up with on the spot was buying the imprisoned dice and using them against him.

    Thanks in Advance

  2. #2

  3. #3
    All (or none) of the basic actions are used before blockers are assigned.

    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...eholder#p13859

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    So, I had my first interaction with Apologies in advance the other day, and it kicked my ass, 2 out of 3 games. So I want to come up with a way to beat it before PDC season hits my area, but to beat it, I want to know how exactly it works. Beholder specifically.

    If I have Jinzo - Trap Destroyer on the field, does he trigger when beholder attacks? 4 times? If so, can my opponent then decide to not pay 2 life for some of the abilities, AKA, can he then pick and choose what to do, or is he forced to either do all 4 and take 8, or do none?
    No definitive ruling on this, however, I would rule that he can choose which of the 4 abilities to pay 2 life to get. A similar situation would be Spider-Man forcing all characters to block him, and also a Lantern battery costing you 1 life. Because of the Cost you can choose which to pay and which not to. I understand that a ruling has been mae that either all 4 get used or none, but I see it as I can declare my intent to use all 4, but then not choose to pay for 2. Again, just my opinion, no ruling to clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    If i have toad - mortimer toynbee on the field, and I force my opponent's non beholder die to attack, does beholder then technically still attack first?
    All attackers are declared simultaneously. The beholder should really say, If this is the first attacker trigger RESOLVED this turn, then do this. In other words, as long as the first thing you do after declaring attackers is to activate the action die, then the Beholder triggers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    Do all 4 of the beholder's basic action die triggers happen at once? AKA, if I bring fireball, which forces him to deal damage to me, thus negating imprisoned. If they happen at the same time, then imprisoned basically fizzles, but if he can choose order, then imprisoned is still VERY strong.
    Your question actually answers itself. If the effects happen at the same time, the Owner choose the order to resolve them in. NOTHING in this game is truly simultaneous, some just happen in such a tight sequence that almost nothing can resolve between them (like combat damage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    How does Beholder capture die? Are they captured by him? so if I kill him, do I get my dice back? Does he actually make a 4th die appear? AKA can I use a Breaker the magical warrior to send it get rid of it and get my dice back? Or are they just in some magical land and the only way to get them back is to wait til he attacks me?
    This is a VERY good question. Personally, and to the detriment of the team build, I think that the beholder is GRANTED the abilities of the action dice he copies, meaning anything that references "this die" like Imprisoned, really means the Beholder die. However, it could just as easily mean that we are meant to take a die of the card and use it temporarily, or simply use a marker to represent a die. (can i buy a die that Imprisoned is "using" and end a capture?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    This is breaking into strategy territory, but if there is anything else you've thought of to get around this guy, I'd love to hear it. All I came up with on the spot was buying the imprisoned dice and using them against him.
    This is actually a solid strategy, as is using Toad or other force attack effects, because your opponent can only distract so many things. Lastly, his distraction is his own worst enemy until he gets Paly or uses DCK. Distract back a character to prevent lethal then get your board back and watch them only have 1 guy left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    Thanks in Advance
    Sassy Closer :P

  5. #5
    You should know going into this that Beholder - Master Aberation is one of the worst worded and most hotly contested cards in Dice Masters. Effectively nothing is for sure about it except that it can perform the Apologies in Advance combo and that when its effect is used, it must use all 4 BAC's present.

    You can't be forced to pay a cost, but Jinzo isn't forcing you to pay the cost, you're choosing to use the 4 BAC's or not. Even with a cost applied, it is an all or nothing ability. If your opponent attacks with Beholder while you have Jinzo out, they can either pay 8 life and use all 4 BAC's, or pay nothing and not use any. This is distinct from the scenario that @Shadowmeld mentioned in that each character is a separate entity which you may choose to pay the cost for or not; the 4 BAC's that Beholder uses cannot be separated and must be played together or not at all. They're not being forced to pay the cost, they're electing to.

    When attacking with Beholder, an order is applied to declaring attackers that does not exist normally. As such, the Beholder declares, all BAC's are used, and then the rest of the attackers are declared. This means that even though you have Toad, your opponent is still allowed to declare their Beholder first. They must attack with any characters that are brought onto the field with the use of the BAC's, but that doesn't seem relevant here.

    They all trigger at once, but you choose to resolve in whichever order you like. Simply choose to resolve fireball before Imprisoned and then use it to recapture all the 0 fielding cost characters with an extra 2 fielding cost to spend as you like.

    How does Beholder do it? Nobody knows. 100%, this is WizKids being WizKids. By the normal game rules, Beholder should not be able to maintain an Imprisoned capture since there is no Imprisoned die to capture the characters. Without a capturing die, captures are released and the combo dies. However, WizKids declared that it works. Ask your TO next chance you get how they rule it works, but know that no one is going to be able to give you a truly correct answer until WizKids explains.

    Fireball + Iron Man - Playboy kills the combo. Either your opponent resolves Fireball first and gets their Beholder killed by the Fireball and Iron Man damage, or he resolves imprisoned first and releases his capture when Fireball is resolved. It takes a single BAC slot and a 4- purchases, but it's more than doable and will take care of Apologies in Advance quite handily.

  6. #6
    You don't question the mighty Beholder and his inner workings...it just does. Lol, actually, I would consider that one of his eye beams (as they have MANY) are simply petrifying the dice affected by Imprison. Game mechanic wise, just bring some extra normal d6s and place one atop of each set that the Beholder captures with Imprison.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Fireball + Iron Man - Playboy kills the combo. Either your opponent resolves Fireball first and gets their Beholder killed by the Fireball and Iron Man damage, or he resolves imprisoned first and releases his capture when Fireball is resolved. It takes a single BAC slot and a 4- purchases, but it's more than doable and will take care of Apologies in Advance quite handily.
    Just so I'm clear, if beholder dies after resolving 1 of the 4 basic actions, then the other 3 immediately fizzle? or they still resolve, but beholder just dies and has to be rerolled?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongooli View Post
    Just so I'm clear, if beholder dies after resolving 1 of the 4 basic actions, then the other 3 immediately fizzle? or they still resolve, but beholder just dies and has to be rerolled?
    Beholder dying does not stop the fact that its ability has been triggered. Once an ability has been triggered, it must resolve unless the game ends before it can. Even if one of the BAC's that Beholder uses kills the Beholder die, the whole ability must still resolve and the remaining three must still be used.

    The trick is that since Fireball will damage the opposing player and release the Imprisoned dice, and Beholder Dying removes the capturing die and releases the Imprisoned dice, this combination of Iron Man and Fireball guarantee's Beholders death unless combat tricks like the Archnemesis! global are used.

  9. #9
    Looking for further clarification. Lets use the example where the following BAC are in play:

    Imprisoned:
    This die captures any number of opposing characters with a total fielding cost of 2 or less. This effect lasts until canceled or you damage your opponent (return the captured die to the field).
    Distraction:
    Your opponent targets two of his or her characters. Those characters cannot block (this turn).
    Global: Pay mask to remove one attacker from the attack zone to the field.
    Fireball:
    Deal two damage to each player and each character.
    You may also spend bolt to deal 1 damage to a target character (you may do this multiple times).
    ** Deal 1 additional damage to each player and each character.
    Magic Missile:
    Deal 2 damage to target character or player.
    ** Deal extra damage to a character equal to the level of your highest level adventurer in the field.
    Global: Pay bolt. Deal 1 damage to a character.
    My opponent has Iron Man: Playboy fielded. I attack with Beholder. I immediately choose to use all four basic actions.

    I use Magic Missile first to deal 2 damage to opponent. I then use Fireball to deal 2 damage to me, 2 damage to my opponent and 2 damage to all characters. This triggers Iron man who KO's Beholder based on his card ability. Based on the suggestion above this does not prevent me from using the remaining BAC's. I conclude by Imprisoning the available characters from the opponents field. Assuming that the Imprisoned action took all of the opponents fielded characters I cannot use the Distraction BAC card text and it fizzles. I have used all 4 BAC's to satisfy the Beholder ability. I end turn having still Imprisoned my opponents characters.

    If I attempt the Beholder ability again another turn, assuming I use the same order of BAC selection, could I not:
    1) Do damage.
    2) Return Imprisoned characters.
    3) Imprison again?


    Cards of reference:

    Beholder: Master Aberration
    If this is the first die assigned to attack this turn, you may immediately use each of the basic action dice abilities, without bursts, once, as if you had rolled those dice.
    Global: Pay 1 energy. Move a die showing an action face from your reserve to your prep area. Do not roll it next turn.
    Iron Man: Playboy
    Each time Iron Man takes damage in the attack step, he deals 3 damage to one opposing character that is attacking or blocking.

  10. #10
    @fun4willis The problem is that Beholder is the de facto holder of the Imprisoned capture. Knocking out the Beholder will release the capture from Imprisoned and the combo dies there. It does not matter that Beholder still resolves all the BAC's, without a die to hold the capture, it is released.

  11. #11
    @Necromanticer I would love that to be true, but do you have any evidence of that working? Had it been ruled that way at a major tournament? Has wizkids said that? I ask because @fun4willis is my local judge and he currently thinks the dice are captured in some phantom zone where there is no way to interact with them. Breaker doesn't work, killing beholder doesn't work. Only dealing damage removes them from imprisoned in our current meta and it makes it crazy strong.

  12. #12
    Ha, you beat me to it.

    I re-read the rules booklet where it concerns the capture effect:
    When you capture a die, move the captured die to your Field Zone and place your capturing die on top of it. The captured die no longer exists for game purposes. Once the capturing ends, place the die wherever it came from (the text on the capturing die’s card will tell you where you captured it from). Unless otherwise noted, capturing ends at the end
    of the turn, or when the capturing die is KO’d.
    I can see why this would be applied to this situation, as there is no other supporting documentation. However, I'm not sure it does apply because the capture is related to an Action die in this instance.

    Thanks again for your input @Necromanticer !!

  13. #13
    Reading what you just posted actually makes @Necromanticer case. It specifically says place the capturing die on top of the captured die. If there is no capturing die, or if the capturing die is ko'd, then return the captured dice to where they came from. If there is no die, there is no capture.

  14. #14
    I believe the Warth ruling actually makes this even clearer. I believe the beholder, using his ability, copies the action dice abilities as if he had these abilities on his card, triggered by a "when attacks" trigger.

    Thematically, this represents the eye rays of the beholder, performing multiple high level magic effects each round.

    Mechanically, beholder become the source of these effects.

  15. #15
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    You're given an unless otherwise specified though. And "thematically," while cool for those who are familiar with whatever a Beholder is, is a dangerous and slippery slope for rules interpretations. Besides, Beholder is categorically not the source of the effect for Fireball. At this time, I'm with @fun4willis . You're using the effect as if you rolled them, not as if Beholder gained 4 when attacks abilities.

  16. #16
    When you capture a die, move the captured die to your Field Zone and place your capturing die on top of it.

    What die are you placing on it? And if none, then why do I not get my dice back at the end of turn? Nothing is holding it there, so it can't stay captured.

  17. #17
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    If I roll the imprisoned die, then I use the imprisoned die. If I use the imprisoned ability as if I rolled the imprisoned die, then I don't use a die at all. Yet the effect lasts until I damage my opponent as if I had rolled the die.

    I'll be the first to admit I've been guilty of interpreting cards to meet how I want them to work, but I really believe that interpreting the Beholder as gaining those abilities is a way bigger stretch than just going with the literal interpretation here. Did I miss a ruling that says otherwise?

  18. #18
    The Beholder's ability just makes you use all the abilities of the 4 BACs you have. If one of them is imprisoned you'll be able to use it, the dice you capture will go under the Beholder, since it caused the action of the capture. However, at the end of turn all effects end unless something states an exception. Granted, the Imprisoned BAC does, but you don't have your dice under an imprisoned BAC Die, and no where in the Beholder text does it have the ability to keep the dice under it. So at the end of turn, you'd return all captured dice.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbain View Post
    The Beholder's ability just makes you use all the abilities of the 4 BACs you have. If one of them is imprisoned you'll be able to use it, the dice you capture will go under the Beholder, since it caused the action of the capture. However, at the end of turn all effects end unless something states an exception. Granted, the Imprisoned BAC does, but you don't have your dice under an imprisoned BAC Die, and no where in the Beholder text does it have the ability to keep the dice under it. So at the end of turn, you'd return all captured dice.
    I would want to agree with you, if only to put this thing to bed, except...
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...eholder#p14172

    This ruling clearly states that the Beholder + Imprisoned + Distraction interaction is able to maintain captures and compound captures as turns progress. The combo definitely works, WizKids just hasn't told us how yet; having Beholder be the capturing die is most consistent with the rules.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    I would want to agree with you, if only to put this thing to bed, except...
    http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/vie...eholder#p14172

    This ruling clearly states that the Beholder + Imprisoned + Distraction interaction is able to maintain captures and compound captures as turns progress. The combo definitely works, WizKids just hasn't told us how yet; having Beholder be the capturing die is most consistent with the rules.
    Exactly! I suggested elsewhere, to bring a few extra d6s to represent the beholder capture. This allows any of the action removal guys to free a Beholder capture (maintaining game balance).

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    having Beholder be the capturing die is most consistent with the rules.
    I think I agree. But having no die capture them is most consistent with Beholder's card text.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut7 View Post
    Exactly! I suggested elsewhere, to bring a few extra d6s to represent the beholder capture. This allows any of the action removal guys to free a Beholder capture (maintaining game balance).
    The problem is that the D6's don't exist in game. You need a die in the game to maintain the capture, you can't just have die "tokens." This is why the rare Ultron Drone has another die hold its capture when it gets knocked out and why the rule book says to place the captured die under the capturing die. Without the die, there's nothing holding the capture. You can't have prisoners with no jailer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jthomash2 View Post
    I think I agree. But having no die capture them is most consistent with Beholder's card text.
    Having no die to hold a capture is against the rules. Beholder's effect does not change those rules. The ruling on Beholder states it works. As such, we make the least amount of assumptions and have Beholder follow the rules by being the capturing die for the Imprisoned capture. As @Shadowmeld mentioned, this is also consistent with the new Warth ruling on how effect proxies work.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    The problem is that the D6's don't exist in game. You need a die in the game to maintain the capture, you can't just have die "tokens." This is why the rare Ultron Drone has another die hold its capture when it gets knocked out and why the rule book says to place the captured die under the capturing die. Without the die, there's nothing holding the capture. You can't have prisoners with no jailer.
    Actually, the D&D rulebook mentions using tokens to signify experience gained for adventurers. No reason, the same philosophy can't be applied to Beholder with Imprison.

    Edit: Why didn't I think of this before? Just bring all your extra action dice and only use them for Beholder captures with Imprison.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut7 View Post
    Actually, the D&D rulebook mentions using tokens to signify experience gained for adventurers. No reason, the same philosophy can't be applied to Beholder with Imprison.

    Edit: Why didn't I think of this before? Just bring all your extra action dice and only use them for Beholder captures with Imprison.
    The tokens are for keeping track of the Experience mechanic that is part of the game. Similar to Infinity counters, they are expressly called for and given life through an effect

    Capture is a mechanic where you place dice under another die that is part of the game. It is explained quite clearly in the rulebook.

    The token dice you propose do not exist in the game and would release the capture as there is no capturing die.

    You can't just make the problem go away. Currently we're not 100% clear on how Beholder works, but there is a single solution that fits the ruling and the most in-game rules. That solution is that the Beholder proxies the Imprisoned effect and becomes the new self-referential holder of the capture. This is in keeping with the capture mechanics, the rulings on proxied effects, and the Beholder ruling. It does run into an issue with the wording on Imprisoned, but given the new Warth ruling, that's easily explained.

    On the other hand, the proposal of tokens for holding a capture fundamentally strays from the mechanics of the game. It has no basis in any of the listed effects, has no precedent elsewhere in the game, and necessitates an unbased assumption to even exist. It removes the inherent counterplay that the capture mechanic has built in and incorporates foreign elements without an effect to call for them. This is simply too far a stretch and cannot be entertained as a possible way to play Beholder.

  25. #25
    I respect your opinion, and have merely offered a solution to address the Beholder + Imprison. This is based on the ruling from wizkids stating that distracting your beholder does not end the capture at the end of the turn. My solutions were a simple way to deal with a very situational problem. I do see where you are coming from and realize that the issue is very divided and that until wizkids spells out how to handle this situation, it will remain divided. Fortunately for me, I only run Imprison with key cards that do not include the Beholder.

    Edit: I believe it was mentioned above, but why not just use the beholder die to be the jailer? Knock him out or he leaves the field, the effect is cancelled and your dice are released. This would be in line with the wizkids ruling.
    Last edited by bahamut7; 12-10-2015 at 03:36 PM.

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