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Thread: Iron Fist and globals.

  1. #1

    Iron Fist and globals.

    Posting this thread because it was relevant to the PDC I played in and I haven't seen an official ruling on this. Does Iron Fist prevent damage from globals (like Red Dragon and Wasp)? The judge he ruled that he does not, which I don't think is necessarily incorrect but I find his reasons kind of sketchy. I can see an argument both ways, and I'll even argue both sides.

    I can't get a colon code for Iron Fist to work.
    While Iron Fist is active, reduce damage from opposing character's abilities by 1. When Iron Fist is KO'd, you may move a die with purchase cost 5 or more from your Used Pile to your Prep Area.
    The reasons cited by the judge: The rulings on Cyclops - Field Leader and Loki - Loki Laufeyson. Also the weaker effect ruling.
    Relevant cards
    and for whatever reason I can't get Loki to work as a colon code so
    While Loki is active, once per turn you may pay to deal 1 damage to a character die. That character die loses all of its abilities until end of turn. You may use this ability whenever you could use a Global Ability.
    I don't think these are sufficient though. Loki specifically removes abilities from a die, and a global ability is not on a die. Field Leader cares about a character dealing damage, and when you use a global it isn't the character dealing damage - its the player. I don't see how these rulings can even apply to the situation here.

    Here is the argument for why I think it might not. Weaker effect guideline seems legit if applied to an ambiguous situation even though I dislike that guideline. I have a hard time believing a 2 cost card was intended to stop global pings.

    The word "character" is not a keyword, and it could be argued that the "character" in Iron Fist's text means "character die" - and again a character die does not have global abilities.

    As for how I could see it maybe working that he does prevent pings from globals.
    "Abilities" is a key word in the Dice Masters keyword database on their website and its text reads
    The text on the die’s associated card.
    and the ping comes from text on a card associated with a die - whether that die is purchased or not. The reason I don't believe it matters if the die is purchased or not is Magneto - Magnetic Monster which reads
    Zombie - when fielded, KO all non-Z Mangetos.
    While active, opposing characters with Purchase Cost 3 or lower lose their abilities. Professor X can't be fielded.
    and we know its been ruled that he can blank globals on opposing cards even if they're not purchased. The similarity in language between Iron Fist and Magneto seems to be a pretty strong argument IMO. Neither card mentions cards or dice, neither mention "global abilities", and both refer to abilities as things characters have.

    I could go either way, and again I don't think the judge was wrong in making the ruling he did. I am curious about other opinions though.

  2. #2
    "Does Iron Fist prevent damage from globals (like Red Dragon and Wasp)?"

    I agree your judge made the correct ruling, that Iron Fist does not prevent damage from globals.

    Iron Fist's ability is reducing damage from an opposing character ability. If you inserted the words "die" or "card" after character in Iron Fist's ability, the rulings would support the judgment:

    - - The Cyclops ruling establishes that Global Abilities are not something a character does [i.e. the character ability and the global ability have distinct applications and are affected differently by other game effects, unless specifically noted]. This covers "card".

    - - The Loki ruling establishes that effect on a character die does not affect a Global Ability on the applicable die's card. This covers "die".


    The Magneto ruling explains the effect within the context of its application: his ability specifically affects the entire character card - both the character ability and any global present. If you were to insert the words "cards" or 'dice" after character in Magneto's ability, you could argue that his ability does not affect globals. However, the WK ruling clarifies the application of the effect and uses a new term, text box, to explain.


    I would not link the syntax of Iron Fist's ability (which I read to be character card/die) and Magneto's (which I read as the character's text box).

    Using this terminology on future cards would alleviate the ambiguity we are experiencing.

    Relevant ruling references:

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=3703

    Q: Does Cyclops - Field Leader make Cable's Global effect cause +1 Damage?

    A: A Global Ability isn't something the character does, it is something the player does. Cyclops does not increase this damage from Cable's Global Ability.


    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=8185

    Q: If there are multiple dice of the same character in play that this ability is used on, does only that one die lose its abilities? If only one die loses its ability, would this leave that characters global to be used, unlike when there was only one die in play that Loki's ability was used on?

    A:Loki’s ability text specifically references a “character die,” unlike other cards such as Magneto – Magnetic Monster and Prismatic Spray – Lesser Spell, both of simply reference “character.” This distinction dictates the answers to both of your questions.
    If there are multiple, active dice associated with a single character, and Loki’s ability is used on one of them, the other dice associated with that character retain their ability text and are otherwise unaffected by Loki’s ability.
    If Loki’s ability is used on a character whose card has a Global Ability on it, the Global Ability remains available for use by either player regardless of how many copies of that characters die are active.


    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=8002

    Q: While Magneto is active, Wasp will lose her ability to do me damage when I use a Global Ability. Am I (or is my opponent) still able to use the Global Ability on her card, or is that lost as well?

    A: While Magneto: Magnetic Monster is active, if your opponent has the Wasp: Founding Avenger card on his or her team, that card’s text box—including the Global Ability—is considered to be blank. As a result, neither player would be able to use Wasp’s Global Ability. This is the case regardless of whether your opponent has an active Wasp die in the field. In this way, Magneto is similar to Prismatic Spray: Lesser Spell.

  3. #3
    I still don't see how the Cyclops ruling is even relevant. Are global abilities considered abilities of a character? The reason Cyclops doesn't buff global abilities is because the character isn't doing the damage, the reason Iron Fist may or may not prevent it isn't related to the character doing the damage - it only matters if its an ability of a character. There is an apostrophe in Iron Fist's text, it uses possessive language as if it only cares where the ability comes from. Loki's ruling is also 100% irrelevant because Loki's text specifies die, neither Iron Fist nor Magneto do.

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=9202

    So WK has a ruling that is more confusing than helpful. Iron Fist doesn't say "character abilities" he says "character's abilities". Magneto's text does however reference characters losing abilities. A strict reading of both the above mentioned ruling and this one

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=8002

    just creates a headache. Either their reason for the ruling on one of these is wrong or they straight up contradict themselves.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Just creates a headache. Either their reason for the ruling on one of these is wrong or they straight up contradict themselves.
    Very confusing, so against Z Magneto globals are character abilities but not against Iron Fist o.0?

  5. #5
    They ruled that Magneto straight up wipes character cards of 3 cost or less which is why globals can be locked out. Iron Fist reduces character ability damage by 1.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut7 View Post
    They ruled that Magneto straight up wipes character cards of 3 cost or less which is why globals can be locked out. Iron Fist reduces character ability damage by 1.
    Which if you read Magneto's text would mean that they ruled "their abilities" includes global abilities."Their abilities" meaning abilities belonging to the characters. If you read the Iron Fist text it would imply that global abilities aren't. Iron Fist's text is possessive "character's abilities" not "characters abilities". Meaning these rulings are contradictory.

    Or WizKids aren't admitting Iron Fist has a typographical error.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Which if you read Magneto's text would mean that they ruled "their abilities" includes global abilities."Their abilities" meaning abilities belonging to the characters. If you read the Iron Fist text it would imply that global abilities aren't. Iron Fist's text is possessive "character's abilities" not "characters abilities". Meaning these rulings are contradictory.

    Or WizKids aren't admitting Iron Fist has a typographical error.
    Or Magneto.

    I'd much rather Magneto just read, "Blank the text of all opposing character cards cost 3 or less."

    Then he wouldn't be the cockblock to every low cost item, (he even blocks ring damage as it adds the rings ability to the character).

  8. #8
    This is the question I just submitted. I took a screen shot of the preview.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #9
    Thanks Randy. I'm really thinking they didn't realize how complicated Z Magneto was when the made him and now we are all paying the price.

  10. #10
    Magneto - Magnetic Monster
    "While active, opposing characters with purchase cost 3 or lower lose their abilities. Professor X can't be fielded."

    While Magneto: Magnetic Monster is active, if your opponent has the Wasp: Founding Avenger card on his or her team, that card’s text box—including the Global Ability—is considered to be blank. As a result, neither player would be able to use Wasp’s Global Ability. This is the case regardless of whether your opponent has an active Wasp die in the field. In this way, Magneto is similar to Prismatic Spray: Lesser Spell. (See ruling at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5134).

    -The Dice Masters Rules Team

    Iron Fist - The Immortal
    "While Iron Fist is active, reduce damage from opposing character abilities by 1."

    Global Abilities are not character abilities, even if printed on character cards.

    -The Dice Masters Rules Team

    Global abilities have never been considered character abilities so I can see why Iron Fist does not work. Here is the trick I think. I would assume that Magneto only affects fielded characters and therefore the globals wouldn't go away if the character is not fielded, hence why he acts similar to a prismatic spray, but not completely. I could be wrong, but I do see where they are going with Iron Fist and Magneto.

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