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Thread: WES Rules updates

  1. #1

  2. #2
    Finally settled the Lantern Ring debate at least. Now if only they'd answer why Magneto and Iron Fist work differently.

  3. #3
    They also errata'd Nick Fury - Patch.

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=4588


    Updated 12/17/2015
    Nick Fury: Patch

    Nick Fury's ability is intended to have characters deal double attack damage, it isn't intended for triggers to happen multiple times. This simplifies a handful of rules interactions with him and obsoletes some questions in our queue.
    (115) Nick Fury: Patch
    His text should read:
    While Nick Fury is active, your unblocked Avengers character dice deal double combat damage to your opponent.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktdata View Post
    They also errata'd Nick Fury - Patch.

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=4588
    Didn't even notice that (they put it on the end of the second to last post in the thread...), but at least it's now there.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by IgwanaRob View Post
    Didn't even notice that (they put it on the end of the second to last post in the thread...), but at least it's now there.
    Yeah, really glad they decided to bite the bullet on that one. This errata closes so many rules questions or loop holes that patch was causing.

  6. #6
    I still want to know if Atom and THE Atom are the same or different characters. :-)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorback View Post
    I still want to know if Atom and THE Atom are the same or different characters. :-)
    I would say, until otherwise ruled, yes they are. BLBatman is different than Batman. One could argue that AN Atom is different than THE Atom.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    they also answered the fact that you cannot refill your bag on search so at least that ones out of the way.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Finally settled the Lantern Ring debate at least. Now if only they'd answer why Magneto and Iron Fist work differently.
    How would you say they work differently?

  11. #11
    He means because Iron Fist doesn't stop damage from globals, but Magneto turns off Character's globals and they both say "character ... abilities".

    Personally I think it's a very thin hair they cut, and they need to change wording somewhere or every time an ability references "character" and "ability" in the same sentence, there will always be two interpretations as to whether that includes globals.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    How would you say they work differently?
    http://www.thereservepool.com/thread...st-and-globals

    Thread I made about it that is apparently a week old. Magneto's text references removes "their abilities", Iron Fist prevents damage from "character's abilities", Magneto removes globals but Iron Fist doesn't prevent damage from globals. WK has not mentioned why one effects globals and the other doesn't, just that that is how it works.

  13. #13
    That's just plain wrong...

    The game works by a source system. The player is the sources of activated globals even though the global is on a character card. Wiping a character's abilities clears its text, including global text. Accordingly, Iron fist could only mitigate damage from a global that made a character the source by saying something like:
    "Pay X. When target character dies, it deals target opponent Y damage."

  14. #14
    Except that the way Iron Fist is worded would actually imply that it doesn't matter if the character is dealing the damage or not. He prevents 1 damage from a character's ability. He doesn't say he prevents 1 damage dealt by characters.

    The question it raises is if a global ability is a character's ability. Based on how Magneto is ruled we have to say that "yes it is", but based on Iron Fist's ruling we have to say "no it isn't." and in fact people argued in the thread about the question that it isn't (and has never been). In which case Magneto shouldn't stop global abilities. Either way, Magneto or Iron Fist needs to be errata'd to keep rules text consistent with card text.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Except that the way Iron Fist is worded would actually imply that it doesn't matter if the character is dealing the damage or not. He prevents 1 damage from a character's ability. He doesn't say he prevents 1 damage dealt by characters.

    The question it raises is if a global ability is a character's ability. Based on how Magneto is ruled we have to say that "yes it is", but based on Iron Fist's ruling we have to say "no it isn't." and in fact people argued in the thread about the question that it isn't (and has never been). In which case Magneto shouldn't stop global abilities. Either way, Magneto or Iron Fist needs to be errata'd to keep rules text consistent with card text.
    No, the way Iron Fist is worked means that non-combat damage from character sources is reduced by 1.

    Where you're going wrong is equating an ability that a character has to a character ability.

    Abilities means text. Global abilities and character abilities are two different things. Global abilities are not character abilities, but they are abilities that are on characters. Effects that remove abilities from character make that character textless, including global abilities. Effects that interact with character abilities will not interact with global abilities.

    The Magneto and Iron Fist rulings are fine in conjunction, hold no contradictions, and need no clarification.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    No, the way Iron Fist is worked means that non-combat damage from character sources is reduced by 1.

    Where you're going wrong is equating an ability that a character has to a character ability.

    Abilities means text. Global abilities and character abilities are two different things. Global abilities are not character abilities, but they are abilities that are on characters. Effects that remove abilities from character make that character textless, including global abilities. Effects that interact with character abilities will not interact with global abilities.

    The Magneto and Iron Fist rulings are fine in conjunction, hold no contradictions, and need no clarification.
    This may be the case, but man could they have not worded those cards, or even the rulings better so that we didn't have a situation where "characters abilities" =/= "character's abilities"?

    If only for ease of use?

  17. #17
    It's one thing to say extra clarification would be good and make the game easier to intuit. It's another thing to say that we don't know how to play certain cards or interactions without rulings.

    One of the biggest problems with the community is that there's a natural tendency to not want to call people wrong even when there are right answers available. I wholheartedly agree that WizKids isn't good at making immediately clear and easily understandable effects, but there are very few actual problems with the current set of effects and interactions and most "controversies" are manufactured.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Abilities means text. Global abilities and character abilities are two different things. Global abilities are not character abilities, but they are abilities that are on characters. Effects that remove abilities from character make that character textless, including global abilities. Effects that interact with character abilities will not interact with global abilities.

    The Magneto and Iron Fist rulings are fine in conjunction, hold no contradictions, and need no clarification.
    Just for the sake of pointing it out again. Iron Fist's text says "character's abilities" which would mean "abilities of characters" Magneto says "their abilities" which would mean "abilities of characters" from a strict reading. The keyword database does not have a definition for "character abilities". The argument seems to be implying that "character's abilities" and "their abilities" are referencing two different things. How can we extrapolate that from reading the cards? If, as you say "abilities means text" why doesn't Iron Fist stop global abilities? It's text on the card. However if "ability" means "non-global ability" than what part of Magnetic Monster's text makes it so he stops globals? MM has no mention of global abilities anywhere on the card, just "abilities", and Iron Fist makes no reference to "character abilities" just "abilities".

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Just for the sake of pointing it out again. Iron Fist's text says "character's abilities" which would mean "abilities of characters" Magneto says "their abilities" which would mean "abilities of characters" from a strict reading. The keyword database does not have a definition for "character abilities". The argument seems to be implying that "character's abilities" and "their abilities" are referencing two different things. How can we extrapolate that from reading the cards? If, as you say "abilities means text" why doesn't Iron Fist stop global abilities? It's text on the card. However if "ability" means "non-global ability" than what part of Magnetic Monster's text makes it so he stops globals? MM has no mention of global abilities anywhere on the card, just "abilities", and Iron Fist makes no reference to "character abilities" just "abilities".
    "Character's abilities" means abilities characters are using/are the source of. "Their abilities" means abilities they have on their card. It's quite simple.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    "Character's abilities" means abilities characters are using/are the source of. "Their abilities" means abilities they have on their card. It's quite simple.
    Yeah, my take on this is that abilities are the entire text on the card, which is divided into character abilities and global abilities. Thus Magneto can remove all abilities (character and global).

    Some globals effectively provide extra character abilities i.e. Lantern Ring, which means they can be reduced by Iron Fist. Most globals simply function as abilities on their own i.e. Wasp and therefore can't be reduced by Iron Fist.

  21. #21
    I don't think its a matter of what the word "ability" means, giving it more thought. I think the problem is that character means both character card and character die. Magneto is using the word "character" to mean "character card" and Iron Fist is using it to mean "character die". Its an issue that goes all the way back to AVX coming back up in a new way.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    http://www.thereservepool.com/thread...st-and-globals

    Thread I made about it that is apparently a week old. Magneto's text references removes "their abilities", Iron Fist prevents damage from "character's abilities", Magneto removes globals but Iron Fist doesn't prevent damage from globals. WK has not mentioned why one effects globals and the other doesn't, just that that is how it works.
    The reason he can affect globals is because he wipes card text. Not that hard, same as prismatic spray wiping PXG global. They did a ruling saying so.

    Globals may be text on the card of the character, but when a player uses a global it turns into an effect caused by the player not the card. They also explained this with the human torch global not being able to be used with cyclops field leader.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormyknight View Post
    The reason he can affect globals is because he wipes card text. Not that hard, same as prismatic spray wiping PXG global. They did a ruling saying so.
    100% irrelevant to the point I was making. I know how they ruled, just for a while I thought the way they ruled was inconsistent with card text. As in Iron Fist and Magneto both referencing abilities (not referencing different kinds of abilities) yet having different implications as to what an ability is. The issue isn't about that after given some consideration - it's that Iron Fist and Magneto are using the word "character" to mean different things. It has nothing to do with how wiping text works - it has everything to do with Iron Fist effecting character dice and Magneto effecting character cards while neither card specifies which.

    Edit: Basically the confusion comes from characters having text that want us to treat text differently from one another. Both characters care about the abilities of other characters, both characters interact with and reference the abilities of other characters - both directly effect abilities of characters. They use the word character to mean different things though so the game is asking us to treat text that cares about character abilities differently without specifying when or why. "Because that's how text wiping works" isn't an answer to "why" or "when" because it's just stating that in that instance we should treat it a specific way without explaining. It's like answering "Why is 1+1 2?" with "Because 1+1 is 2". Is it clear? Sure, maybe. But it doesn't actually solve a core issue the game has with language so it's a bad answer.

  24. #24
    You're making it too complicated. Yes they both reference text. The main reason they are different is because they affect abilities in two different ways. Magneto wipes character text, if he prevented damage done by character abilities then he would still be affected by globals since globals are not used by the character, they are used by the player.

    Iron Fist can't prevent damage done by players because it doesn't say it on the card. They ruled globals as having the player be the source of the effect, but it is still text on the card. THAT is why I referenced card text wiping, because it is taking away the text on the card it can affect the character card.

    Cut and dry they don't need to explain because they already have. You're reaching for Iron Fist to allow prevention of damage from non-character abilities, and that is just not going to happen.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormyknight View Post
    You're making it too complicated. Yes they both reference text. The main reason they are different is because they affect abilities in two different ways. Magneto wipes character text, if he prevented damage done by character abilities then he would still be affected by globals since globals are not used by the character, they are used by the player.

    Iron Fist can't prevent damage done by players because it doesn't say it on the card. They ruled globals as having the player be the source of the effect, but it is still text on the card. THAT is why I referenced card text wiping, because it is taking away the text on the card it can affect the character card.

    Cut and dry they don't need to explain because they already have. You're reaching for Iron Fist to allow prevention of damage from non-character abilities, and that is just not going to happen.
    I'm gonna have to side with @Scum insofar as I think it is an important distinction to make. Both effects are interacting with characters and abilities, but it's the semantics that make them different. If they both just said "character abilities," then they would work the same way and either Magneto wouldn't clear globals or Iron Fist would prevent their damage. However, that is not the case and we have solid rulings outlining what each effect does.

    Thus, since we know they work differently and are worded differently, it follows that the difference in their wording is related to the difference in their effects. Since wording defines the effect, we can logically conclude that the different in their wording is the cause of the difference in their effect and happily accept them as being distinct despite their face value similarity.

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