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Thread: Scarlet Spider vs Constantine Hellblazer

  1. #1

    Scarlet Spider vs Constantine Hellblazer

    Hi everyone,

    I have a quick question about Constantine Hellblazer and how it interacts with Scarlet Spider.

    For reference, here's the text for both:

    Constantine - Hellblazer: "While Constantine is active, before your opponent's Clear and Draw Step, you may name a character. If that character is fielded this turn, ignore its text until end of turn and it cannot attack this turn."

    Scarlet Spider - The Spectacular: "Underdog - When fielded, ignore target character's text this turn." (Webslinger has a similar ability with an added effect)

    If my opponent has Constantine and names Scarlet Spider on my turn, what happens when I field Scarlet Spider? Who's text gets blanked?

  2. #2
    First off: if your opponent has multiple active Constantines, SS could only blank one so he would still be unable to attack.

    If there is only one Constantine, we have two effects that take place at the same time. Here is what the rulebook says:

    Timing Conflicts
    If there is a conflict of timing (e.g., both players want to use an ability simultaneously), the person whose turn it is always resolves their effects first. If simultaneous effects are controlled by the same player, that player chooses the order of those effects.
    So as the active player, you resolve your effect first and your opponents Constantine is blanked. If it was the only copy, it tries to use its ability but has no text to refer to, so it blanks. See here regarding Prismatic Spray:

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=5989

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pk2317 View Post
    First off: if your opponent has multiple active Constantines, SS could only blank one so he would still be unable to attack.

    If there is only one Constantine, we have two effects that take place at the same time. Here is what the rulebook says:



    So as the active player, you resolve your effect first and your opponents Constantine is blanked. If it was the only copy, it tries to use its ability but has no text to refer to, so it blanks. See here regarding Prismatic Spray:

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=5989
    Thanks for the clarification on timing conflicts.

    Though on your point about there being more than one dice, wouldn't Scarlet Spider blank all Constantine dice, in that case? After all, it does state that it's target character's text. It doesn't specify that it only affects that one character die...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ccm00007 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification on timing conflicts.

    Though on your point about there being more than one dice, wouldn't Scarlet Spider blank all Constantine dice, in that case? After all, it does state that it's target character's text. It doesn't specify that it only affects that one character die...
    You're right on the text

  5. #5
    Target, means 1 die. You can't target things that aren't active and in the field.

    And as for Spider versus Constantine I had this thought this week:

    Does Constantine stop Zmags or does Zmags stop Constantine? or for that matter, Spray versus Common Doom Caliber Knight?

    ​There are two arguments here. 1) Fielding a character and using an action have two steps a) paying the cost and announcing the field/use and 2) moving the die and resolving the field/effect.

    OR

    2) Fielding a character and using an action are a single effect and the minute you pay for them only Prevention or redirection abilities can stop them. However, there are so many dice that wouldn't have a viable function if that were the case. The question of whether "cancel" is a prevention effect is still up in the air, but I'm personally positive that it is.

    So, let's run with example 1, to perform step A you have to pay 2 for Jinzo, or similar effects to even move to the payment portion, but only after you have performed step A can you trigger Doctor strange or beholder or DCK common for that matter. Then, only after those reactions trigger, and possibly resolve(if they are prevention or redirections, as I assume DCK and Constantine's effects are), do you resolve part B, and then finally resolve the (non-prevention/redirection) triggers that step A triggered (such as Human Torch for fielding or Doctor Strange for action dice).

    Moving to Example 2, We would field a character, resolve it's effects, unless prevention or cancellation effects trigger, then trigger other effects. We know though that Psylocke doesn't KO venom before venom Kos Psylocke, but rather triggers both effects simultaneously then resolves them in order, so this seems unlikely the way these mechanics are supposed to work.

    Anyway, just a thought I had.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by VastSpartan View Post
    You're right on the text
    Like @Shadowmeld said, "target" means only one die. See here for other dice retaining their abilities:

    http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb...hp?f=10&t=8185

  7. #7

  8. #8
    When discussing Constantine versus Scarlet Spider.

    Constantine's ability occurs before the draw phase. And by naming Scarlet Spider (Target is the Character card , not a die) when she is fielded, her card is blanked, and she wouldn't have the ability to name Constantine as a target.

    The difference being when the abilities are used and that Constantine is name a character, and Scarlet is choose target character (die).

    @Shadowmeld . When it comes to Constantine vs Zmags, it depends on the active characters. So lets start with Constantine being active and Zmags is named. Opponent fields Zmags, Zmags for this turn, cannot attack, and card has no text. Turn ends, next turn, Zmags is active, Constantine effect goes away, and Zmags affect takes effect. Which from that point forward, Constantine being a 2 cost piece, is blank until Zmags is off the board.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    This is a question about the order of resolution and how Hellblazer's effect works in the first place.

    The trick is that Hellblazer has a two part effect. The first part activates at the start of the opponent's turn and allows you to name a character. The second part is a persistent effect that checks to see if that character has been fielded or not and if it has, then that characters text is ignored and it cannot declare attacks that turn.

    The way it breaks down is as follows:
    The opposing player's turn starts and Hellblazer names Scarlet Spider.
    The opposing player rolls Scarlet Spider and fields him.
    This triggers Scarlet Spider's effect and changes the Boolean state of Hellblazer's effect.
    Scarlet Spider's effect tries to resolve, but since he was fielded, his text is blank and no effect will resolve.

    It's a very clear interaction and is the same reason why Hellblazer stops all other "When fielded" effects. The text cancellation portion of his effect is not a triggered effect, but rather a persistent effect that checks a Boolean variable (whether the named character was fielded or not). As such, the active player's effects resolving first does not come into play and the text is negated before it can resolve. It doesn't actually stop the trigger from occurring similarly to how Prismatic Spray does not wipe which character was named by a Hellblazer, but when the ability tries to resolve, there is no text to follow and so the trigger is wasted, not negated.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jwannabe View Post
    The uncommon "spectacular" says character.
    The rare " webslinger" says die.

    They both say target. There has to be a difference.
    There doesn't have to be a difference, WizKids is notorious for having inconsistent wording for similar effects or similar wordings for distinct effects. Targeting always refers to a set number of dice while naming affects all instances of a character.

  11. #11
    Does this mean you believe that common DoomCaliber Knight can't cancel Prismatic Spray, as he will have no game text? After all, your opponent would use spray, triggering its effect and DCK's then you resolve active player's triggers first which shut off DCK preventing his effect.

    I follow your Boolean argument on Constantine, and while that may be the case, the pairity between the ZMags vs Constantine and Spray vs DCKommon has me questioning whether "cancel" is at its heart a prevention effect of another name.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    Does this mean you believe that common DoomCaliber Knight can't cancel Prismatic Spray, as he will have no game text? After all, your opponent would use spray, triggering its effect and DCK's then you resolve active player's triggers first which shut off DCK preventing his effect.

    I follow your Boolean argument on Constantine, and while that may be the case, the pairity between the ZMags vs Constantine and Spray vs DCKommon has me questioning whether "cancel" is at its heart a prevention effect of another name.
    No, as you aptly pointed out, cancelling an ability and blanking text are two different things. Cancelling an ability is preventing an effect from resolving in the first place. As a prevention effect, it does not wait until effect resolution and so is able to keep Prismatic Spray from wiping the text that DCK needs to stop it in the first place.

    Edit: The fact that cancellation is in fact a prevention effect is bolstered by the Super Rare Iron Man that states:

    "Cancel all damage that Villains deal to Iron Man."

    Since we know mitigating damage is a prevention effect and also does not conform to standard timing, the same logic can be applied to DMK (Or Hobgoblin, Blink, DMK's Rare, etc.).

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