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Thread: Sacrifice

  1. #1

    Sacrifice

    Do sacrificed characters like on Silver Sable - Hero For Hire, that states you may sacrifice a character during your main step to make one character unblockable, go to the standard used pile or out of play.

    I ask because the action of sacrificing is similar to paying a cost but I have not seen it stated anywhere a mention of out of play. This question came up when dealing with cards that let you roll or return cards from your used pile.

  2. #2
    No one is entirely certain. However, the rulebook states used pile over and over again.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jwannabe View Post
    That's what I have found. I was in a situation I could have pulled sable and used her 3X in a single turn, which was awesome, but I was sure if it was right.
    My thread on KingPin and Pyro had a large argument on whether I can put my characters instantly into the used or out of play. I say instantly to the used.

  5. #5
    I believe it goes straight to used, polymorph does basically the same thing but it doesn't have the sacrifice mechanic attached to it.

  6. #6
    Polymorph swaps two characters and bypasses fielding. Sacrifice is a way to pay a cost.

    My argument is that the original document for the out-of-play/transition zone says everything that starts in the field or reserve that goes to used during your turn must pass through the out-of-play/transition zone. It also gives a specific ruling on a Juggernaut card that had a pre-sacrifice ability.

    I submitted a question to the rules forum about a week ago. Feel free to submit more.

  7. #7
    The temporary document that you reference does indeed state that, however no rulebook since has said that.

    On top of that, the polymorph example is a good one. Poly sends a die to used, not to transition, why? Because the card specifically states otherwise, as do all references to the sacrifice mechanic.

  8. #8
    Invisible Stalker - Greater Elemental would also support the directly to used argument.

  9. #9
    There is no separate transition zone, the transition area is part of the used pile, just like the KO zone is part of the prep area.

    If you are sending anything to used, not swapping, then it goes through a transition, just like using an action die or energy for a global would.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RainCityJenna View Post
    There is no separate transition zone, the transition area is part of the used pile, just like the KO zone is part of the prep area.

    If you are sending anything to used, not swapping, then it goes through a transition, just like using an action die or energy for a global would.
    Its a debate about the new mechanics. The argument is moving dice such as the words on Juggernaut Move to the used pile. The new term being sacrifice just instantly sends it to used. Its Wizkids, notorious for making cards that breaks the rules.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by VastSpartan View Post
    Its a debate about the new mechanics. The argument is moving dice such as the words on Juggernaut Move to the used pile. The new term being sacrifice just instantly sends it to used. Its Wizkids, notorious for making cards that breaks the rules.
    There is no difference between moving a character to the used pile with Juggernauts ability or sacrificing a character.

    All dice that are moved to the use pile during the active players turn are in transition.

    " Sacrificed characters are moved from the Field Zone to the Used Pile "

    If Juggernaut took damage as a blocker, you could still use the ability but they wouldn't be in transition because it's not your turn as active player.

    There is only one zone, the used pile, the distinction is that dice go out of play for active players. So there would be no specification that it goes out of play, because there's no such zone.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RainCityJenna View Post
    There is no difference between moving a character to the used pile with Juggernauts ability or sacrificing a character.

    All dice that are moved to the use pile during the active players turn are in transition.

    " Sacrificed characters are moved from the Field Zone to the Used Pile "

    If Juggernaut took damage as a blocker, you could still use the ability but they wouldn't be in transition because it's not your turn as active player.

    There is only one zone, the used pile, the distinction is that dice go out of play for active players. So there would be no specification that it goes out of play, because there's no such zone.
    The difference is the new mechanic and there isn't clarification yet.

    My vote is instant.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by VastSpartan View Post
    The difference is the new mechanic and there isn't clarification yet.

    My vote is instant.
    It's a new mechanic yes, but it still it doesn't change how the meta rules play. The used pile works a certain way during the active players turn to prevent dice cycling over and over again.

  14. #14
    This means that the maneuver that was used at worlds which had a player moving his unfielded characters to the used and polying them out is not a legal maneuver then huh?

    Also, as a close read, polymorph targets also go to transition, because the document doesn't say anything about only dice used, it says dice from Reserve or Field go to transition on your turn. In other words, if it is to be placed in used from field or reserve, it transitions.

    The reason purchased dice don't go to used is because they come from a card, not the Reserve.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowmeld View Post
    This means that the maneuver that was used at worlds which had a player moving his unfielded characters to the used and polying them out is not a legal maneuver then huh?

    Also, as a close read, polymorph targets also go to transition, because the document doesn't say anything about only dice used, it says dice from Reserve or Field go to transition on your turn. In other words, if it is to be placed in used from field or reserve, it transitions.

    The reason purchased dice don't go to used is because they come from a card, not the Reserve.
    There is at least one CLEARLY established exception to the idea that any dice sent from the reserve pool or field zone to the Used Pile go through Out of Play:

    Any characters that you do not field (because you can't or choose not to) by the end of your Main Step go to your Used Pile (they do not go Out of Play since they were never used).
    -ASM rulebook, p.12, last sentence on page.

    I don't see any thing enabling unfielded characters to be moved to the Used Pile before that, so I would conclude the maneuver Shadowmeld mentions could not be done legally in the Main Step, but could possibly be done (legally) in the Attack Step.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Son of 'L's View Post
    There is at least one CLEARLY established exception to the idea that any dice sent from the reserve pool or field zone to the Used Pile go through Out of Play:

    -ASM rulebook, p.12, last sentence on page.

    I don't see any thing enabling unfielded characters to be moved to the Used Pile before that, so I would conclude the maneuver Shadowmeld mentions could not be done legally in the Main Step, but could possibly be done (legally) in the Attack Step.
    Thanks for pulling that up for the difference between using a die and unfielded characters.

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by agentj View Post
    What has the community decided on this subject of sacrifice?
    Currently, the application of this Keyword is in two camps:

    [1] On your turn, if your character dice are sacrificed, they go the Out Of Play Area and then the Used Pile at the end of turn. Hence, they are unavailable for game effects applicable to dice in the Used Pile.

    [2] On your turn, if your character dice are sacrificed, they go directly to Used Pile. Hence, they are available for game effects applicable to dice in the Used Pile.

    For both situations above, if it is your opponent's turn and you sacrifice your dice, they go directly to the Used Pile.


    Ask your TO/Judge which application they will be enforcing before play starts.

  19. #19
    Not sure if this would help or complicate things, but at worlds during my last game with norvic, i asked jimmy how exactly puzzle works during my opponents turn in consideration with the out of play zone. If I used puzzle to send my opponent's jinzo to the used during their turn, would they be in the out of play zone or straight to used. He said it goes straight to used. So while I did get puzzle to get jinzo off norvics field, that same turn he resurrected and was able to get jinzo to his prep area/bag. So it seems to be there are instances where sending a dice from the field to the used doesn't need to go to the out of play zone.

  20. #20
    I'm in the camp that thinks sacrificed characters go straight to used and don't go out of play, which means they probably do go out of play.

  21. #21
    @zeon20 - You are absolutely correct. The situation you cited is one argument folks in camp [2] make in support of their position.

  22. #22
    The easiest answer is the rules specifically state ANY die sent from the field or reserve is in transition to the used pile till the end of your turn. ANY does not mean sometimes or on special occasions. Poly is not applicable in this situation due to it being a swap it is not sent. Also refer to ritual it is a similar effect but was ruled that the die goes out of play. It has also been ruled any die used for a cost goes out of play. Read the key word for sacrifice it states it is indeed a cost.

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