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Thread: Black Widow: Natural

  1. #1

    Black Widow: Natural

    I was just checking out Black Widow in dm.retrobox.eu and came across the AVX Black Widow: Natural: card text "At the end of the attack step, spin each character engaged with Black Widow down 1 level (this happens before damage clears)."

    Clarification on "before damage clears".

    As I understand it the Attack Step consists of 4 'phases' (trying to avoid the word steps)
    1) Declare attackers
    2) Declare blockers
    3) Use Globals and Actions (for active player)
    4) Resolve combat damage

    My interpretation of the card text means that the spin down happens after phase 3 and before phase 4, correct?

    So if the active player has a level 1 Natural attacking (2A 1D), and the inactive player has a SK blocking (1A 1D) and nothing in phase 3 alters that, then the spin down would be applied to the SK and it would be KO'd because it could not comply (level 1 characters that are subject to a mandatory spin down are KO'd correct?), and Natural would remain blocked but in the Field because the SK never delivered its 1A.

    Thanks for any clarifications.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    I was just checking out Black Widow in dm.retrobox.eu and came across the AVX Black Widow: Natural: card text "At the end of the attack step, spin each character engaged with Black Widow down 1 level (this happens before damage clears)."

    Clarification on "before damage clears".

    As I understand it the Attack Step consists of 4 'phases' (trying to avoid the word steps)
    1) Declare attackers
    2) Declare blockers
    3) Use Globals and Actions (for active player)
    4) Resolve combat damage

    My interpretation of the card text means that the spin down happens after phase 3 and before phase 4, correct?

    So if the active player has a level 1 Natural attacking (2A 1D), and the inactive player has a SK blocking (1A 1D) and nothing in phase 3 alters that, then the spin down would be applied to the SK and it would be KO'd because it could not comply (level 1 characters that are subject to a mandatory spin down are KO'd correct?), and Natural would remain blocked but in the Field because the SK never delivered its 1A.

    Thanks for any clarifications.
    Actually, there's a step after combat damage is dealt, which is where any triggers caused by combat damage (i.e. Green Goliath) are resolved before the end of the turn. I think that's when Natural's effect happens, seeing as it's not before damage is dealt, but before it clears. However, with that said, it's an AVX card, and AVX is notorious for its confusing terminology.

    And about level 1 characters asked to spin down: Unless the card specifically states otherwise (i.e. Beast - Kreature), then a level 1 character asked to spin down simply does nothing.

    So yeah, in your example, regardless of when it would trigger, both the Black Widow and the Sidekick would be KO'ed.

    Hope that helps!

  3. #3
    These are both incorrect. Black Widow - Natural will only ever trigger at the end of the Attack Step, never during or in the middle of it. This means she must survive her combat in order to proc and only then will she spin down opposing characters.

    The trick is that combat damage does not go away at the end of the attack step. Instead, it is cleared in the cleanup step that comes after. As such, if both Black Widow and her partner in combat survive the fight, the opponent will be spun down 1 level and possibly knocked out by the damage it incurred during the attack step.

    For an example, let's imagine a Level 2 Black Widow (2A/2D) attacks and is blocked by a level 2 Elf Wizard (1A/3D).
    They exchange combat damage and neither is knocked out.
    After the attack step ends and combat damage is resolved, the Elf Wizard is spun down one level (0A/2D).
    Since the Elf Wizard has taken damage equal to or greater than its defense, it is knocked out in the cleanup step before damage has a chance to clear.

    If you were to pit a level 1 Black Widow (2A/1D) against the same foe, the outcome would be quite different...
    They exchange combat damage and Black Widow is knocked out.
    Since Black Widow is not engaged with the Elf Wizard at the end of the attack step, she does not proc and play continues with the Elf Wizard surviving the encounter.

    Finally, as described earlier, if a level 1 character would be spun down, nothing happens. It does not change the character to an energy face, nor does it knock it out. Taht is a specific effect of Beast - Kreature and not normal game mechanics.
    Last edited by Necromanticer; 01-21-2016 at 01:20 PM.

  4. #4
    You mean a level 2 Black Widow with a (2A/2D)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by archivist View Post
    You mean a level 2 Black Widow with a (2A/2D)
    I mean exactly that. I was already thinking ahead to the level 1 example and just duplicated the stats.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    These are both incorrect. Black Widow - Natural will only ever trigger at the end of the Attack Step, never during or in the middle of it. This means she must survive her combat in order to proc and only then will she spin down opposing characters.

    The trick is that combat damage does not go away at the end of the attack step. Instead, it is cleared in the cleanup step that comes after. As such, if both Black Widow and her partner in combat survive the fight, the opponent will be spun down 1 level and possibly knocked out by the damage it incurred during the attack step.

    For an example, let's imagine a Level 2 Black Widow (2A/2D) attacks and is blocked by a level 2 Elf Wizard (1A/3D).
    They exchange combat damage and neither is knocked out.
    After the attack step ends and combat damage is resolved, the Elf Wizard is spun down one level (0A/2D).
    Since the Elf Wizard has taken damage equal to or greater than its defense, it is knocked out in the cleanup step before damage has a chance to clear.

    If you were to pit a level 1 Black Widow (2A/1D) against the same foe, the outcome would be quite different...
    They exchange combat damage and Black Widow is knocked out.
    Since Black Widow is not engaged with the Elf Wizard at the end of the attack step, she does not proc and play continues with the Elf Wizard surviving the encounter.

    Finally, as described earlier, if a level 1 character would be spun down, nothing happens. It does not change the character to an energy face, nor does it knock it out. Taht is a specific effect of Beast - Kreature and not normal game mechanics.
    Incorrect good sir.

    Black Widow - natural specifically states that the opposing character is spun down BEFORE combat Damage. This is akin to Energy Drain found in the D&D sets. Now a level 1 character cannot be spun down to energy or KOed because of it (only a few cards specifically say they can do this, she is not one). Think of it as blocking or when blocked ability, it only triggers if this character is engaged with another.

    Regardless of her level
    1.) she attacks or blocks
    2.) an opponent character blocks her or is blocked by her
    3.) that character is spun down
    4.) any other effects are resolved
    5.) combat damage is applied to all characters.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut7 View Post
    Incorrect good sir.

    Black Widow - natural specifically states that the opposing character is spun down BEFORE combat Damage. This is akin to Energy Drain found in the D&D sets. Now a level 1 character cannot be spun down to energy or KOed because of it (only a few cards specifically say they can do this, she is not one). Think of it as blocking or when blocked ability, it only triggers if this character is engaged with another.

    Regardless of her level
    1.) she attacks or blocks
    2.) an opponent character blocks her or is blocked by her
    3.) that character is spun down
    4.) any other effects are resolved
    5.) combat damage is applied to all characters.
    Sorry, mate, you're misremembering the card. Her exact text is:

    "At the end of the attack step, spin each character engaged with Black Widow down 1 level (this happens before damage clears)."

    This specifies after the attack step and before damage clears. This is not before combat damage is dealt, it is after. That's why she's not good, she has to survive combat in order to get her effect off.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromanticer View Post
    Sorry, mate, you're misremembering the card. Her exact text is:

    "At the end of the attack step, spin each character engaged with Black Widow down 1 level (this happens before damage clears)."

    This specifies after the attack step and before damage clears. This is not before combat damage is dealt, it is after. That's why she's not good, she has to survive combat in order to get her effect off.
    Well you are correct, I was misreading the card, but you are still partially incorrect. She doesn't have to survive the attack step. Her ability triggers before damage clears. Her surviving or being Knocked Out doesn't stop the "spin each character engaged with Black Widow down 1 level." So, she is still an early prototype for Energy Drain and would cause the spin down regardless, however, the opposing die or dice would still deal their original attack to her.

    If the card had said after the attack step with no "before damage clears" than I would be in complete agreement with you.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut7 View Post
    Well you are correct, I was misreading the card, but you are still partially incorrect. She doesn't have to survive the attack step. Her ability triggers before damage clears. Her surviving or being Knocked Out doesn't stop the "spin each character engaged with Black Widow down 1 level." So, she is still an early prototype for Energy Drain and would cause the spin down regardless, however, the opposing die or dice would still deal their original attack to her.

    If the card had said after the attack step with no "before damage clears" than I would be in complete agreement with you.
    Again, no.

    Her card specifies that only characters that are engaged with her when the attack step ends will be spun down. If she is knocked out during the attack step, then her opponent's will not be engaged with her and will not be spun down when the attack step ends.

    She's effectively a strictly worse version of Energy Drain because she must survive combat in order to proc.

  11. #11
    I still feel that her ability would still proc. I get where you are coming from, but it just doesn't feel or seem right to me. Even though it says at the end of the attack step, the reminder text also states that this happens before damage clears. This would imply to be before the cleanup stage, which would be when you thinks she triggers.

    Edit: On a side note, after reading ghost Rider's uncommon, I feel that Black Widow does trigger regardless of her surviving combat.

    Last edited by bahamut7; 01-21-2016 at 06:31 PM.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Along with the FAQ ruling, it may help to read the (before damage clears) portion of her ability as stating that damage doesn't clear before the character is spun down, allowing for the Elf Wizard in Necromanticer's earlier example to be KO'd, instead of damage clears -> spun down -> Elf survives because damage has cleared.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordred414 View Post
    http://wizkids.com/dicemasters/dice-masters-faq/

    This question is answered in the official faq from 2014. She has to survive. Necromanticer has it right.

    This is why she's not very good. Her low defense makes her fail to proc most of the time.
    Well son of a monkey. That is sad. It took a great character and made her weaker...not the first time this has happened. Well, that's as official as you can get. You win this one Necromanticer! But next time I will conquer the Southeastern Quadrant! lol

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