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Thread: The love of Dice Masters

  1. #1

    The love of Dice Masters

    Recently, I began helping a local game store introduce Dice Masters to the area it serves. We've began building a strong base of 8-10 regulars. These are almost all new players to the game. They love it. I love it because I can try out my crazy deck ideas without losing too badly. But one of the things I like about this is: No AVX. Sure they use the starters, but that's it. I've found that I don't use to much of it either, because these are new found friends. Don't get me wrong I still love playing AVX in competitive tournaments. It an important part of Dice Masters.
    The first week playing there I used Lantern Ring with Tsarina, and beat my opponent so badly, he never showed up again. And I felt badly, because he seemed to want to learn the game. Now as I try my crazy deck ideas, I've opened up the game to these people. They are learning the basics, and learning about strategies and combinations. They are getting better, and it's exciting to see them improve. They don't have access to AVX cards and dice. If they did, I fear we'd lose the varieties I see week to week. I'm sure eventually, they will start adding AVX, when they can, and that will be fine. But for now, it's fun to just enjoy the long game.

  2. #2
    Tsarina can throw off a player the first time...but so can Guy Gardner. AvX as a whole isn't overpowered...except that cursed Hulks.

  3. #3
    That's a great point. But I wasn't saying it's overpowered, which is a debate for another thread. I was saying it's not readily available. And that changes how we play at this particular location.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE1959 View Post
    That's a great point. But I wasn't saying it's overpowered, which is a debate for another thread. I was saying it's not readily available. And that changes how we play at this particular location.
    That is fair enough.

  5. #5
    The title of this thread is so cliche....

    You beat down a newbie so hard that he quit the game? ......well, tourneys are for sure arent his thing.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by VastSpartan View Post
    You beat down a newbie so hard that he quit the game? ......well, tourneys are for sure arent his thing.
    I thought the same thing. What's the point of going to tournaments if you can't handle a loss?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    I thought the same thing. What's the point of going to tournaments if you can't handle a loss?
    Handle the loss with a grain of salt and just learn. Everyone gets their @#$%&* kicked the first few times. I didnt pick it up until my second constructed tourney and a handful of casuals. The drafts are on a different scale. Those took me around four tourneys to really start to deck build on the fly. Looking up the gallery of cards picking out whats best and a small amount of luck.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE1959 View Post
    That's a great point. But I wasn't saying it's overpowered, which is a debate for another thread. I was saying it's not readily available. And that changes how we play at this particular location.
    When playing in tournaments with all new players, I try to focus on fun combo teams, things that are interesting and show the sets for their synergies and I try to stay with newer sets to showcase those that are easily available. Like you said, AVX is hard to get, so I try not to include much of that in fun local tournaments, unless it's off the cuff type stuff.

    Hopefully that guy comes back, are you maybe able to reach out to him? I know one of the hardest things for new players is working up the confidence to come back.

  9. #9
    I read the OP that this was a local gaming event and not a tournament. As such, if you are trying to build-up your player base, trouncing new players is not going to achieve that goal.

    I agree, tournaments are cutthroat and no quarter should be asked, or given. But that doesn't mean competitors can't be amicable.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by archivist View Post
    I read the OP that this was a local gaming event and not a tournament. As such, if you are trying to build-up your player base, trouncing new players is not going to achieve that goal.

    I agree, tournaments are cutthroat and no quarter should be asked, or given. But that doesn't mean competitors can't be amicable.
    Then Fighting games aren't your thing either. They will go 0 to 100 in any match.

  11. #11
    I never stated what is "my thing". What's the purpose of this provocative statement?

    And yes - in a combat-themed game, competitors can still be amicable.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by archivist View Post
    I never stated what is "my thing". What's the purpose of this provocative statement?

    And yes - in a combat-themed game, competitors can still be amicable.
    Well its the same thing in any game man. You'll get the people who are highly competitive. I wasn't being provocative, simply a fact that in any game you will get these people who run a train even if they're new. Just take your losses with a grain of salt ,look at what they're doing and ask questions. People will happily tell you what you're doing wrong and give you tips. That's how I learned at least. Its also the best way to learn. Competing against people who are really good, eventually you will see the results.

  13. #13
    Isn't the point of any game to determine who is the winner/if there is a winner? I know someone will say "Nope, the point is to have fun. Dur hur hur hur." but the fun is playing, and the playing is the process in which winners are determined. Therefore by proxy the fun is trying to win. Even if you're super casual and play jank builds for funsies and variety, it isn't like you go into a game and try to roll poorly, make 0 purchases, etc. You still try to win with what you have.

    If the game is about making the other person lose it makes no sense to get upset when you lose. You just played the game, and so did the other person - fair and square. The people who get huffy when they lose aren't the kind of people that are interested in these kinds of games long term.

  14. #14
    When I first started this game I was regularly routed and usually young kids. The key to this game and life in general is learning how it works and finding how to make it work for you. The fun comes in the nuances of the game. The strategy of the game is where the fun is. Figuring out how the other guy is going to score points against you and how you can score points against them. Is winning more fun than losing? Sure, but that doesn't mean you can enjoy the game while losing horribly to a 9 year old with a Thanos obsession.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Isn't the point of any game to determine who is the winner/if there is a winner? I know someone will say "Nope, the point is to have fun. Dur hur hur hur." but the fun is playing, and the playing is the process in which winners are determined. Therefore by proxy the fun is trying to win. Even if you're super casual and play jank builds for funsies and variety, it isn't like you go into a game and try to roll poorly, make 0 purchases, etc. You still try to win with what you have.

    If the game is about making the other person lose it makes no sense to get upset when you lose. You just played the game, and so did the other person - fair and square. The people who get huffy when they lose aren't the kind of people that are interested in these kinds of games long term.
    Understand - my point is not the purpose of a game is to determining a winner, but that if you are trying to get new players into the game, demonstrating your superiority may not achieve this goal. I will assume that many new players expect to lose many of their first games before they become proficient enough to be able to win. And I agree, if a new player doesn't grasp this, then they need to find another pastime.

    Experienced players with the goal of growing the game should be able to lose (conscientiously) without the ego hang-up or the condescension that comes from a "always play to win" attitude.

  16. #16
    But if you lose on purpose are you actually playing the game?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    But if you lose on purpose are you actually playing the game?
    It does build confidence but you really got to up your acting skills.

  18. #18
    What you're building is false confidence. That player is going to walk away from the game thinking they did well but in actuality they were just propped up by a nice but misguided opponent. The better way to handle it would be to take the time after the game to go through some of the moves that the new player did wrong or that the winning player did right. Teach them to player better and they will play better and actually win. If they are a young child, direct them a little so that they learn during the game. This is how they will get better and the game will grow.

  19. #19
    I 100% agree with hwetzel. There is nothing wrong with losing, and learning experiences are exciting. If someone respects your game and culture enough to want to be part of it, you should respect them enough to actually play an honest game with them. I know I'd feel let down if I learned my opponent threw a match.

  20. #20
    I rather have a serious match where I get my @$& kicked. Then I can ask questions. I cant learn if people are easy on me.

  21. #21
    When I play with new players, I generally lay out every possible move they can make. I will also point out which moves are better and why, even if the move will hurt me in the process. I also, tend to not be a stickler on the rules. They forget to use their global? I let them go back and fix it. Maybe I might "forget" to use a character's ability a few times (like Lyssa drak). Granted this could give them a false victory, but I usually follow with "oops, I forgot to call a character, oh well, my bad, your turn."

    I try to teach them what to look for and how to look for it. I also, discuss the game we just played and give them pointers on their team. Synergy, cost, ramp, removal, etc.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Isn't the point of any game to determine who is the winner/if there is a winner? I know someone will say "Nope, the point is to have fun. Dur hur hur hur." but the fun is playing, and the playing is the process in which winners are determined. Therefore by proxy the fun is trying to win. Even if you're super casual and play jank builds for funsies and variety, it isn't like you go into a game and try to roll poorly, make 0 purchases, etc. You still try to win with what you have.

    If the game is about making the other person lose it makes no sense to get upset when you lose. You just played the game, and so did the other person - fair and square. The people who get huffy when they lose aren't the kind of people that are interested in these kinds of games long term.
    Yeah, I don't get it, but as a judge I have to just play nice because this game attracts the "participation trophy" crowd a lot, for whatever reason.

    But yeah, I've played this, HeroClix, and Magic all competitively, and I definitely was going 0-3 consistently for weeks at a time before starting to get wins, sometimes, in every game, getting beat so bad it hurt; the thing is, I expected that, and knew that was also the way I was going to learn to play the best. I never expected to come in the first time and start doing well, let alone win, with any game I've started, but I stick around and keep playing because my confidence isn't based on something that I haven't even learned to play yet. I mean... it's just hard, because I do play nice and all as a judge, but I know when I started playing I got beat down hard by Tsarina and Gobby and Hellblazer, and it just made me want to get them and play with those cards/characters and get better myself. Sure, it wasn't like I was HAPPY to lose, but I wasn't mad at anybody about it... I understood it would take me time in a competitive, collectible game with rarity values, to both get good at the game and build a competitive collection.
    Hell, now all you need is a War of Light starter for a Guy and a common Miri from some boosters or something and you're in business. The meta is so crazy diverse that you don't need any AvX to make a good, playable team, honestly - I know I've seen plenty without them, in environments with people with AvX and people without.

  23. #23
    Some of my fondest memories in gaming come from losses where I learned something. The loss doesn't feel bad, being outplayed is fine. When it creates a moment of realization than it actually turns into a loss that was worth having. I'd be happy to lose all day if I were getting better because of it.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Scum View Post
    Some of my fondest memories in gaming come from losses where I learned something. The loss doesn't feel bad, being outplayed is fine. When it creates a moment of realization than it actually turns into a loss that was worth having. I'd be happy to lose all day if I were getting better because of it.
    I often spend many days doing just that... losing all day lmao.

  25. #25
    Just to chime in with my own 2 cents on "play to win" vs "nurturing your new players":

    Yes, the game is all about making your opponent lose, but I think there's plenty of middle ground available between thrashing your opponents week after week and winning the tournament and coddling everyone to the point we're playing the bumper bowling of Dice Masters.

    For example, if I've got a team that goes for a 3rd turn kill with Guy Gardner and I'm up against a new player, going full out, crushing my opponent on turn 3, and then going "Nice game, brah. Good luck in your next match."... that's not going to inspire anyone to want to come back and play again. Similarly if you've got some sort of lock down team that makes it that your opponent can't do anything and they're just sitting there and watching you play till time is up doesn't help things either.

    To me these sort of games are the ones where I try out different win conditions of my team (which helps me be able to be more versatile in the play of my team) while explaining the main win condition to my opponent and things that can be done to counter it and making friendly suggestions for their team (though trying to avoid suggesting stuff like "oh you need Hellblazer, Jinzo, and Tsarina... that's just $150.").

    If you're super worried about losing, you can always get in a ton of early damage, and just hold off on the killing blow until they've had an opportunity to get a feel for their team some and figure out what does and doesn't work for them.

    I just know right now I care a whole hell of a lot more about our number of players each week than I do my W/L record.

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